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Thread: 06/14/06 - LGA - Main Terminal

  1. #31
    Senior Member SengaB's Avatar
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    I know when to keep quiet. Sometimes its just better to listen.

    Senga

  2. #32
    Senior Member NIKV69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom turner
    took the words out of my mouth...
    I remember this encounter..

    http://www.nycaviation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1838

    Glad you didn't take the "the wx is bad" or the "out of towner" mentality Tom and followed up and visited the precinct. If you read both Justin and Tom's encounters carefully you will find some pretty disturbing things. I am not saying we have to be rude to law enforcement, just have to be a little assertive to the ones that trample our rights. Once again Tom great job.
    'My idea of a good picture is one that's in focus and of a famous person doing something unfamous.' Andy Warhol

  3. #33
    Administrator PhilDernerJr's Avatar
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    Nick, but we do not have a RIGHT to photograph airside at LGA. There is a rule against it, set forth by the authority there.
    Email me anytime at [email protected].

  4. #34
    Senior Member Tom_Turner's Avatar
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    okay..I'll go ahead and say something wrong... :)

    I am not sure the Port Authority has a genuine "rule" against photography. They are very careful *not* to post such a "rule" anywhere that I have seen. Is it written down anyplace - on any document - they have ever produced? If they have, I am interested in obtaining a copy.

    My suspicion is that its not written down anywhere - the reason being the Port Authority has more leverage this way and does not want to risk losing in court. Not that they should lose, but they might. Notice how homeless bums were allowed the run of Terminal A at EWR last time I knew..and for years and years Hari Krishnas could carry on their celebrations (and even solicitations?) in airport terminals all across the country.

    Last I knew Port Authority had a clever de facto "don't ask, don't tell" policy - although at LGA it seems recently modified to a "ask first - and maybe we'll let you shoot" and over at EWR its a de facto - "shooting isn't allowed"/"you need a letter" policy. [Interestingly, I don't know if any of you guys have met him (I don't believe I have), but if I am correct fellow enthusiast "Wasim" was actually able to obtain such a letter a few years back at EWR and present it to airport employees/authorities when questioned..]

    Of course there are varying views on Airport authorities these days... the locals in Boston seem to view MassPort as a soveriegn kingdom..."They can do what they want" - CASE CLOSED. Personally, I am more inclined to the Don Boyd/MIA spotters view that airports are "public" land/faciilities and if you aren't doing anything wrong.... Things have gone alright there for the most part, and at W-DC because the local spotters have worked successfully with the airport authorites.

    Nick and all - back to LGA, New York and calling ahead specifically - if enterprising folks amongst us are endeavoring to establish a working relationship with Port Authority (and others) for the greater good of the hobby, then I am fully supportive of the sentiment behind these goals/strategies -and modifiying our behavior in some reasonable way(s).
    Lets keep in mind the "big picture" and lets see what happens...

    [by the way, people have been bothered by those windows for years..sometimes ... and sometimes they were left in peace after a name was dropped.. that won't help out-of-towners or anyone without the proper contacts of course.]

    If though, over time, as a group, we fail to see *any* gains (collectively) and the only reason to call ahead (letting common sense, The Constitution, justice etc be thrown out the window) is some servile/pathetic hope that next week the dice roll differently or it is an effort to "preserve" the one little crumb the Port (and others) have inadvertently left for us - after they have eliminated 99% of the viewing/shootable spots PRE-911 for reasons having nothing at all do with some A.net geek not getting along with a specific police officer or security guard..then I say just shoot in whatever way floats your boat...

    Lastly - I think we have to realize two things...

    The first being we are going to have to "respect" for lack of a better term - the fact that we all make our own shooting decisions. WE don't have to agree with each others decisions, but few here amongst us have *never* at some point, ventured to rationize a decision to get a shot - it might be "tresspassing", it might be shooting through the fence at EL AL, or Halmar, or atop the Parking Garage, after we've been told to stop/without asking/whatever, it might be shooting at LGA terminal without calling ahead, shooting from the College tower, stopping our car on the roadways, bypassing the fence at the mounds, etc.. ..and this is only amongst ourselves..a nice group of folks...

    With some locations published and others openly discussed at a number of sources on the net, and the hobby growing, its inevitable people are going to show up from out-of-town or locally - and basically do what they want. Why wouldn't they?

    Tom
    "Keep 'em Flying"

  5. #35
    Senior Member FlyingColors's Avatar
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    "and at W-DC because the local spotters have worked successfully with the airport authorities. "

    This is good goal we should try to accomplish....

    HOWEVER, from what I've gathered from many here is IF it don't work, then we could be accused of shutting down photog/spotting all together in our area.
    "my finger on the shutter button, while my eye is over my shoulder"

  6. #36
    Moderator Matt Molnar's Avatar
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    Something to think about...while the PA is a pseudo-government-agency, the courts have classified their facilities private property in at least one recent ruling in regard to trespassing. (Case involved RNC protestors on the sidewalk next to Ground Zero.)
    Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem.
    All four engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them under control.
    I trust you are not in too much distress. —Captain Eric Moody, British Airways Flight 9

  7. #37
    Senior Member NIKV69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom turner
    I am not sure the Port Authority has a genuine "rule" against photography
    Well is there or is it just something they choose to enforce when they feel the need to run someone off?


    Quote Originally Posted by flyingcolors
    HOWEVER, from what I've gathered from many here is IF it don't work, then we could be accused of shutting down photog/spotting all together in our area.
    This is way off base. We are trying to work successfully with the authorities, the reason of this whole thread is the fact that someone went above and beyond and was run off. We need to do what Tom did at Howard Beach.
    'My idea of a good picture is one that's in focus and of a famous person doing something unfamous.' Andy Warhol

  8. #38
    Senior Member FlyingColors's Avatar
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    What Tom did was wonderful.

    But like I hear from many, if the powers to be don't "go for it" it could be very very easy for them to just slap up some signs stating no more of this allowed.

    But if the group wishes to make an effort then by all means count me in.
    "my finger on the shutter button, while my eye is over my shoulder"

  9. #39
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    bad your day got ruined by this. what i do is go next to a window frame and lean against the window. they would see the camera, and they never bothered me. ( i used a normal digital camera, not one of the really good long ones)

  10. #40
    Senior Member FlyingColors's Avatar
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    "Well is there or is it just something they choose to enforce when they feel the need to run someone off? "

    According to my run in with the FBI their is no law prohibiting photography of commercial jetliners, with military being an exception.

    I chose not to question air shows and 699 trillion military photos taken in the US alone.

    Nuff said.
    "my finger on the shutter button, while my eye is over my shoulder"

  11. #41
    Senior Member Futterman's Avatar
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    With regards to being "too afraid" to take a stand, the fact of the matter is that the Port Authority can't close down Planeview Park. Or Howard Beach. Or even Costco and McNeil Park. I'd be surprised if they even have a valid enough excuse to acquire the support and the funds for a "no photography" sign (the enforcement of which, by the way, would require active patrolling that we've already seen to be irreperably inconsistent and controversial).

    The Police Department isn't the one putting up signs in the airport. It's the Port Authority. And as unlikely as it may seem, they are our greatest (only, actually) chance for being recognized and supported. But the people we have to talk to about this -- as spotters in Toronto and DC have demonstrated -- are the administrators, the supervisors, the managers, and executives, not "Detective" Cheech or "Sergeant" Chong. Working with the big-wigs will offer the greatest chance of achieving something akin to us becoming the clichéd "extra set of eyes and ears".

    It's no secret that the only way to really succeed in the aviation industry is to network. Consider the fact that, as a group, we have an incredibly impressive amount of credibility at our disposal -- we've worked for over a dozen different magazines, been featured in the New York Times, and cooperated with a countless number of major airlines and organizations (including the PANYNJ) in arranging things as "sensitive" as access to the airfield. With all this under our belt, it's rediculous to believe that a few confused cops and their nonsensical excuses will jeopardize our hobby.

    Brian
    "My wife is an air traffic controller. I married her because I've always wanted to screw the FAA." - B. Wulle

  12. #42
    Senior Member NIKV69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by futterman
    not "Detective" Cheech or "Sergeant" Chong
    Seriously Brian, you made a great point but there is no need for your little personal "caste system" comment about low ranking law enforcement, it is true that there is a small percentage of them that though ignorance and bravado try to use their badge to bully us into believing our hobby is illegal but for the most part they are hard working people that actually put their lives on the line for us when they go to work, I would show some respect.


    Quote Originally Posted by futterman
    It's no secret that the only way to really succeed in the aviation industry is to network. Consider the fact that, as a group, we have an incredibly impressive amount of credibility at our disposal -- we've worked for over a dozen different magazines, been featured in the New York Times, and cooperated with a countless number of major airlines and organizations (including the PANYNJ) in arranging things as "sensitive" as access to the airfield. With all this under our belt, it's rediculous to believe that a few confused cops and their nonsensical excuses will jeopardize our hobby.
    The credentials are impressive Brian but all we need to do is spot responsibly and stand up for ourselves as Tom did. I don't mean to drag his encounter into this discussion every time but if you dissect it it's the perfect example of the ignorance we encounter and how it has no right to try scare us from this hobby.
    'My idea of a good picture is one that's in focus and of a famous person doing something unfamous.' Andy Warhol

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by NIKV69
    but there is no need for your little personal "caste system" comment about low ranking law enforcement
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by NIKV69
    I would show some respect
    Are you serious??? This coming from the person who called law enforcement "the gestapo" in this same thread... :roll:

    It's comical that no matter what Brian says and regardless of whether you agree with what he said (which you say you do here), you'll find something to get on his case about, even if it means taking such clearly inconsistent positions.

  14. #44
    Senior Member NIKV69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakbar
    This coming from the person who called law enforcement "the gestapo" in this same thread...
    Unfortunately Josh you are generalizing much the same as your buddy Brian does about anything I say. Please remember my gestapo comment was used solely for the small percentage of law enforcement that uses threats and erroneous laws to treat us in the manner we are talking about here. I never referred to all law enforcement in this manner, as much as you and Brian would like everyone to believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by jakbar
    It's comical that no matter what Brian says and regardless of whether you agree with what he said (which you say you do here), you'll find something to get on his case about, even if it means taking such clearly inconsistent positions.
    Actually Josh I am not searching for something to get on his case about, his clear disdain for people he deems inferior (which is something you are no stranger to as well) is totally not needed in this discussion, not to mention totally tasteless.
    'My idea of a good picture is one that's in focus and of a famous person doing something unfamous.' Andy Warhol

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by NIKV69
    Quote Originally Posted by jakbar
    This coming from the person who called law enforcement "the gestapo" in this same thread...
    Unfortunately Josh you are generalizing much the same as your buddy Brian does about anything I say. Please remember my gestapo comment was used solely for the small percentage of law enforcement that uses threats and erroneous laws to treat us in the manner we are talking about here. I never referred to all law enforcement in this manner, as much as you and Brian would like everyone to believe.
    Here we go again with your paranoid delusion that Brian and I are somehow out to poison everyone's mind about what you say. Nobody but you believes this, so get over it already. I don't give a **** what people think of you, and I have far better things to dwell upon. I suspect the same is true for you. And don't insult my intelligence by stating that you don't look for opportunities to take jabs at both me and Brian. DON'T. If you honestly don't realize what you're doing, you need help, pal.

    You completely missed the point of what I said. It has nothing to do with your so-called "generalizations". Rather, my point is that you are in absolutely no position to criticize someone for calling a small group of law enforcement officers (i.e., those that come up with their own laws) by a certain name when you yourself did the same thing. Ever hear the expression "talking out of both sides of your mouth"? You just provided a prime example of it. I couldn't help point it out since I found it genuinely hilarious that you actually agreed with Brian but still couldn't help yourself with trying to put him down, and then the only way you could come up with is to make a total hypocrite of yourself. I am 100% positive that every member of this forum saw that for the total b.s. that it was.

    Quote Originally Posted by NIKV69
    Quote Originally Posted by jakbar
    It's comical that no matter what Brian says and regardless of whether you agree with what he said (which you say you do here), you'll find something to get on his case about, even if it means taking such clearly inconsistent positions.
    Actually Josh I am not searching for something to get on his case about, his clear disdain for people he deems inferior (which is something you are no stranger to as well) is totally not needed in this discussion, not to mention totally tasteless.
    Give it a rest already with this whole b.s. about thinking people are inferior. The only thing going on is that you pick and choose isolated words out of my posts (and Brian's posts) to craft your false and offensive accusations about me. Would you like it very much if people started calling you a Nazi and a Jew-hater because you decided to use some rhetorical flourish in your posts by employing the word "gestapo" to describe the police? I think not. My advice to you -- and this is very strong advice -- is to drop this whole bit about making public accusations against me and others based on your own selective reading of my posts. It will not serve you well to continue to do so.

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