Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 48

Thread: 06/14/06 - LGA - Main Terminal

  1. #16
    Senior Member dlx737200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    107
    Quote Originally Posted by mikephotos
    You tried to do the right thing and got screwed, no fault of your own...welcome to NY :) I would not have left so easily. The more they "win" these 'incidents' the worse it gets for everyone.

    Mike
    Another reason I didn't fight the order to leave, was because the weather sucked. Had it been clear, beautiful weather, I might've fought more. But the weather straight up sucked. Between the weather and being foreign to the airport, in my reasoning, it just wasn't worth the battle. If it were MCO and in clear weather, I would've fought it till the point when they attempted arrest on me. But it just wasn't worth arguing for crappy shots on a, so far at the time, great vacation that I didn't want ruined.

    Also, I didn't know how the locals would take it if they heard I had argued with the cops at LGA. I've always read on this website a warning to visitors and even locals: "Be courteous and professional with cops, and always bring ID." I did just that, I did not argue to any great extent and honored the airport's wish, as messed up as it may be. I cared more about what the locals thought about my behavior at their airport then what kind of shots I got. I've heard of one spotter's foul attitude or disregard to the cops wishes ruining one cop's opinion/view towards ALL spotters/photographers at that airport. I did not want that happening because of me. I didn't wanna ruin it for the locals.

    -Justin
    "Who said white things weren't big?" - 100-400L IS

  2. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    TPA
    Posts
    41
    Nope Idle, you've hit the nail on the head. Spending time in NY I learned to question the cops more and not be so passive, but like Idle I didn't want to worsen anything more for the locals, so I made my one comment and left.

    But as far as "turf" goes I agree with Justin. We all have our home airports, TPA for me, MCO for Idle and JFK/LGA for all of you guys. I for one would be pissed off if an outta towner was around braking the rules and making it harder for the locals. Calling TPA police is standard procedure around here, and we never have problems, that's just the way it is. Plenty of visitors have done this and never had a problem. So I guess it just depends on where you are.

    But I had so much fun on the 11th that it didn't even bother me in the end, thanks again guys!!!!!

  3. #18
    Senior Member NIKV69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    IFP, ISP, JFK, IGM, SAN, VCV, LGA, LAX, SEE, LAS
    Posts
    4,258
    Quote Originally Posted by dlx737200
    Another reason I didn't fight the order to leave, was because the weather sucked. Had it been clear, beautiful weather, I might've fought more. But the weather straight up sucked. Between the weather and being foreign to the airport, in my reasoning, it just wasn't worth the battle.
    Not worth the battle? Our rights just got set back God knows how long, it's not about the weather, or who is from where or what airport you are in. It's about a person enjoying something totally within the law and their rights to do so being trampled by some unprofessional, narrow minded badge flasher. Who is too lazy to fnd out what the law is and would rather just run someone off. I find this ridiculous and would hope that someone would take a little bit of a stand instead of looking out the window and saying the wx sucks so I will just leave.

    Quote Originally Posted by dlx737200
    Also, I didn't know how the locals would take it if they heard I had argued with the cops at LGA. I've always read on this website a warning to visitors and even locals: "Be courteous and professional with cops, and always bring ID." I did just that, I did not argue to any great extent and honored the airport's wish, as messed up as it may be. I cared more about what the locals thought about my behavior at their airport then what kind of shots I got. I've heard of one spotter's foul attitude or disregard to the cops wishes ruining one cop's opinion/view towards ALL spotters/photographers at that airport. I did not want that happening because of me. I didn't wanna ruin it for the locals.
    Well this local would have been fine with the fact you stood up for yourself and asked the officer what law you were breaking, you are not arguing with anyone. Let's remember that law enforcement is by no means perfect, this is why internal affairs exists and a system exists where you can file a complaint with any officer that is is out of line. I think Tommy said it best. We need to start writing down badge numbers and getting names and letting their superiors know we are not going to sit by and be bullied and if we are doing something that is within the law we are going to continue to do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by sluger020889
    Calling TPA police is standard procedure around here

    No offense but I think this practice is the most foolish thing I have ever seen. It's bad enough that some law enforcement officers do not want us around even knowing we are allowed to be, yet we have call them and tell them we are there? No, get your camera and go enjoy yourself, you are doing nothing wrong.
    'My idea of a good picture is one that's in focus and of a famous person doing something unfamous.' Andy Warhol

  4. #19
    Senior Member dlx737200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    107
    Quote Originally Posted by NIKV69
    Quote Originally Posted by dlx737200

    Quote Originally Posted by sluger020889
    Calling TPA police is standard procedure around here

    No offense but I think this practice is the most foolish thing I have ever seen. It's bad enough that some law enforcement officers do not want us around even knowing we are allowed to be, yet we have call them and tell them we are there? No, get your camera and go enjoy yourself, you are doing nothing wrong.
    Of behalf of Joey let me say this. Nick, it's one thing for you to tell us how much we've set back the progress in NYC by doing what we thought was the right thing but DO NOT tell us how to operate our photography procedures here in Tampa. We have built up a relationship with the police here in TPA. Before, if we had just gone out, they would always have to come out and do the ID check and waste their time and OUR time, most importantly. A couple times, they've even kicked people out. Then, one police officer gave us a phone # and recommended we call ahead of time. We have done that ever since. It has worked marvelously. Now, at the most, they might drive by us and say, "oh are you the guys who called? Ok then, have a fun time. Get some good pictures!" Tell me how the heck that is wrong? It has shown the police that we are serious about this hobby and that we are very co-operative to their wishes. I guess we could have your attitude and just go out there every day without calling and they keep bothering us. Then when they do bother us, we could argue with them for 10 minutes or so asking what law we've broken, etc, etc, presenting a negative attitude to them. Then they could grow a bad attitude towards all of us and then NO one could photograph at TPA. Yeah, that method is much better. :roll:

    Listen man, I'm sorry you don't agree with the way we handled LGA. But for me, yes, it wasn't worth it. I do not care what you say. I'm not going to go to some Port Authority office (which by the way I didn't even know where the hell it was) on my vacation to stir up more hassle and confrontation just to take pictures in nasty weather through dirty windows of standard traffic I can get here at home.
    "Who said white things weren't big?" - 100-400L IS

  5. #20
    Senior Member NIKV69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    IFP, ISP, JFK, IGM, SAN, VCV, LGA, LAX, SEE, LAS
    Posts
    4,258
    Quote Originally Posted by dlx737200
    they would always have to come out and do the ID check and waste their time and OUR time
    Ok I get it so a PO checking someone near an airort is wasting their time? No sir, it is what WE pay them to do! They are paid by my tax dollars to make sure I am just what I am, a law abiding citizen doing nothing wrong, after this he is to leave. It's when they have to cross the line and try to scare us and invent crap that I take issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by dlx737200
    I guess we could have your attitude and just go out there every day without calling
    Give me a break, there are plenty of spotters that go out and shoot without calling everyone and their grandmother. There is no use for it. As you saw all it takes is one narrowminded cop and your call resulted in one thing, getting the boot.
    'My idea of a good picture is one that's in focus and of a famous person doing something unfamous.' Andy Warhol

  6. #21
    Senior Member dlx737200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    107
    Quote Originally Posted by NIKV69
    Quote Originally Posted by dlx737200
    they would always have to come out and do the ID check and waste their time and OUR time
    Ok I get it so a PO checking someone near an airort is wasting their time? No sir, it is what WE pay them to do! They are paid by my tax dollars to make sure I am just what I am, a law abiding citizen doing nothing wrong, after this he is to leave. It's when they have to cross the line and try to scare us and invent crap that I take issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by dlx737200
    I guess we could have your attitude and just go out there every day without calling
    Give me a break, there are plenty of spotters that go out and shoot without calling everyone and their grandmother. There is no use for it. As you saw all it takes is one narrowminded cop and your call resulted in one thing, getting the boot.
    Wait a moment... one second your complaining about the cops bothering us... the next second your saying we pay them to bother us. Okay, yeah makes sense Nick.

    In my comment about going out without calling, I am speaking of TPA. I go out to MCO all the time and never call anyone. But as far as TPA, we ALWAYS call if we plan to be out there for more than 1 plane. It works every time and we will forever continue to use this method, at least for TPA.
    "Who said white things weren't big?" - 100-400L IS

  7. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    8,285
    Ok I think we need to calm down a bit. Everyone has their own way of doing things and if it works that's fine. Both Nick and Justin have valid points. Justin has setup a way where he has developed a relationship with the police to ensure them we are not a threat. Nick contends it is out right and he has a point. We can't sit here and debate what procedures each of us use.

    The fact of the matter is the P.A officer was dead wrong; you by all means can take pictures in an airport, whether you’re in or out of the secured area. People do it all the time. We need to ensure we stand up for our rights, if that is calling the Police and telling them what we’re doing or going about our business on our own in the end we need to stand up for our rights, that’s what counts.

  8. #23
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    TPA
    Posts
    41
    I call everytime we go out to TPA and I never had a problem. On one such occasion, before I used to call, I found myself surrounded by TPA Airport Police, including their "swat unit." After talking to the officer he said, and I quote "All you had to do is call and let us know you were coming out and all this could have been avoided." So he gave me a number and I call everytime before I go out and I never have a problem, some of the officers even know me on a first name basis. They even over-ruled the people who run the parking lots and said I could stay their and that I was perfectly fine. Doesn't sound so foolish to me???

  9. #24
    Senior Member NIKV69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    IFP, ISP, JFK, IGM, SAN, VCV, LGA, LAX, SEE, LAS
    Posts
    4,258
    Quote Originally Posted by dlx737200
    Wait a moment... one second your complaining about the cops bothering us... the next second your saying we pay them to bother us. Okay, yeah makes sense Nick.
    Jeez, I have no problem with police encounters, just when they cross the line, I would hope a PO would come up to me if someone called them saying they see some suspicious activity. It's when the threats and the lies start. If you are content with letting that happen to you just because the wx is bad and the traffic is boring that is fine, but I would like to be able to do something in public without the crap (and I mean being told what I am doing is illegal, wrong or whatever you call it, so you understand this time) What you are doing down in Fla is great and I am happy for you, but I feel it is nonsense. If the NY area spotters want to call the PA I would think it would make more sense to get a contact, someone with the PA that is aware of what we are doing and also knows we are allowed to do it. By contacting the same person or having contact with him you would avoid what happened at LGA. When you call.
    'My idea of a good picture is one that's in focus and of a famous person doing something unfamous.' Andy Warhol

  10. #25
    Senior Member Futterman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Rego Park/Forest Hills, NY
    Posts
    877
    Quote Originally Posted by NIKV69
    All you did by taking Brian's advice was let the gestapo invent another law and run you off. And put us back even more than we are now.
    Nick, you really have to stop referring to all forms of law enforcement as "gestapo" -- this isn't WWII Germany. It’s disgusting and extremely inappropriate. A number of members on these forums are in fact police officers, and while my advice may or may not be appropriate, your repeated use of the term on this PUBLIC website is not helping our cause any, either.

    When the NCPD showed up at Costco on Sunday 6/11, they let us stay, but one of them actually said to Phil, "Yeah, you're the one with that site, right?" That could just have easily have been: "You're the one with the website that keeps calling us Nazis, right? Leave, and don't come back."

    ________


    I agree with Phil when he said that Justin handled the situation perfectly. When he called me back to tell me what happened, I was actually very surprised – especially considering the fact that for almost the past year, I had made the same phone call at least two or three times a month without incident. So it seemed weird that he would come across trouble right now.

    Considering our track record, I’m leaning towards giving the Port the benefit of the doubt on this one; it was a weekday (we seldom spot in the terminal on a weekday), and Al-Zarqawi had just been killed. Who knows... Whatever the case, I really appreciate Justin and Joey taking the initiative to do as the locals do. If I was there, I would have stayed and pursued the matter down to the Port Authority Operations desk in the basement, but since Justin and Joey are out-of-towners, I think they were better off just leaving.

    Now, personally, I have taken the issue up with the Port Ops office numerous times, and always got the all-clear to shoot from the top of the escalators. But here’s the doozie: When I asked for written permission to give to a cop in the even that a problem did arise, they turned me down. Why? Permission to shoot in the terminal is “granted” on a case-by-case basis, and it’s impossible for the Port Authority to guarantee us a hassle-free experience every time we go out. We have to acknowledge the fact that there could be (and are) a number of events going on that we’d be a hindrance to – security drills, VIP guests, investigations, etc. Multiple people from the Port Authority have told me to do as we have been doing, and call the police department each time we go up to make sure we won’t be in the way of anything.

    Granted, the cop on the phone used 9/11 as an excuse and had no real substance to his argument (as far as I know), so things still aren’t perfect. But we’re working on it.

    Bottom line in this case is that New Yorkers are better suited to dealing with the New York authorities, just as Floridians are best left to deal with their local law enforcement. Sorry you had a bad experience, Justin and Joey, but as you well know by now, **** happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by NIKV69
    Come on, this is about police intimidation, plain and simple.
    This isn’t a war, Nick. You may try to be stand-offish, but the rest of us are looking to do this with as little conflict and compromise as possible.

    Brian
    "My wife is an air traffic controller. I married her because I've always wanted to screw the FAA." - B. Wulle

  11. #26
    Senior Member NIKV69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    IFP, ISP, JFK, IGM, SAN, VCV, LGA, LAX, SEE, LAS
    Posts
    4,258
    Quote Originally Posted by futterman
    Nick, you really have to stop referring to all forms of law enforcement as "gestapo" -- this isn't WWII Germany. It’s disgusting and extremely inappropriate. A number of members on these forums are in fact police officers, and while my advice may or may not be appropriate, your repeated use of the term on this PUBLIC website is not helping our cause any, either.

    When the NCPD showed up at Costco on Sunday 6/11, they let us stay, but one of them actually said to Phil, "Yeah, you're the one with that site, right?" That could just have easily have been: "You're the one with the website that keeps calling us Nazis, right? Leave, and don't come back."
    I wasn't going to justify this with an answer but if you look at the situation Brian I never referred to ALL law enforcement as Gestapo, only the ones that use threats and intimidation to get us to believe that what we are doing is illegal, and in other ways wrong and then scaring us enough to leave. If you know anything that is very gestapo. Also don't try to generalize my words as detremental to the site, it's nonsense. We are also not referring to an encounter at Costco either.

    Quote Originally Posted by futterman
    Considering our track record, I’m leaning towards giving the Port the benefit of the doubt on this one; it was a weekday (we seldom spot in the terminal on a weekday), and Al-Zarqawi had just been killed. Who knows... Whatever the case, I really appreciate Justin and Joey taking the initiative to do as the locals do. If I was there, I would have stayed and pursued the matter down to the Port Authority Operations desk in the basement, but since Justin and Joey are out-of-towners, I think they were better off just leaving.
    You want to the give the PO the benefit of the doubt, that is great Brian, but I don't share your view, who cares if it was a weekday? Not everyone has off on the weekends or choses to spot on the weekends like you Brian, nor do I buy this lame out of towner argument. Can't anyone enjoy the hobby of photography at a said place? What about someone who is travelling and doesn't have the luxury of returning, what if your buddy Justin was from another country and the PSA bird was at LGA and the sun was out? He had that one chance to get it and he was told to leave or had his camera confiscated? Then what would you do? That makes it different? Of course it doesn't. Al-Zarqawi shouldn't enter in the equation either, what happens if we start catching or killing high ranking members of Al-Qaida on a regular basis, guess we better leave when some PO tells us to leave then.

    Quote Originally Posted by futterman
    Now, personally, I have taken the issue up with the Port Ops office numerous times, and always got the all-clear to shoot from the top of the escalators. But here’s the doozie: When I asked for written permission to give to a cop in the even that a problem did arise, they turned me down. Why? Permission to shoot in the terminal is “granted” on a case-by-case basis, and it’s impossible for the Port Authority to guarantee us a hassle-free experience every time we go out. We have to acknowledge the fact that there could be (and are) a number of events going on that we’d be a hindrance to – security drills, VIP guests, investigations, etc. Multiple people from the Port Authority have told me to do as we have been doing, and call the police department each time we go up to make sure we won’t be in the way of anything.
    Brian, your confusing the issue big time here, why would you ask for written permission for something that you can do without it? When you make your phone call to PO to shoot you are doing it as a COURTESY, not permisson. We are allowed to shoot inside the public area of an airport as long as we don't point the camera at security checkpoints. I don't care about being guaranteed hassle free shooting, you can check my ID all day if you want, you can hang out with me and insult my mother while you are at it, just don't threaten me, bully me or tell me what I am doing is wrong or illegal.


    Quote Originally Posted by futterman
    This isn’t a war, Nick. You may try to be stand-offish, but the rest of us are looking to do this with as little conflict and compromise as possible.
    Never said it was war Brian but its violation of our rights, just because it's Law enforcement and it's a post 9/11 era at an airport doesn't make it right.
    'My idea of a good picture is one that's in focus and of a famous person doing something unfamous.' Andy Warhol

  12. #27
    Moderator Matt Molnar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    9,302
    Hey everyone, as this thread has become (understandably) one with strong opinions, just a friendly reminder to attack ideas, not people. Thanks.

    Now for my humble $0.02...

    While I am not out spotting nearly as much as many of you guys, and I've never had an encounter with the police, I do know quite a bit about the problems photographers of all sorts have had over the past 5 years.

    I am in agreement with everyone else (I think) on this board that photographing planes does not pose any security risk whatsoever. But I think in the long run, whether it's justified or not, and whether the constitution is on our side or not, if the police and/or the PA and/or the airlines get fed up enough with people photographing from inside the airport, they will simply make the currently open areas inaccessible to non-passengers. It would be extremely easy to do.

    Every negative encounter with the cops brings us a tick closer to it, even if it is the cops who are in the wrong. There will be no public outcry, the majority will be against us. The odds of winning will be slim.

    So I think for shooting from inside the airport, giving the PD a heads up is a good idea. Shooting from outside the airport, off of airport property is a whole other story.
    Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem.
    All four engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them under control.
    I trust you are not in too much distress. —Captain Eric Moody, British Airways Flight 9

  13. #28
    Administrator PhilDernerJr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Queens, NY
    Posts
    12,470
    I think a lot of people in here have great points. As you've all heard me say, I think it's important to remember that what we say here can represent our entire community, now over 300 strong.

    One point was made saying that if it's legal, then that's it, which is not necessarily true. Though it might be legal, powers that be do have the power to prohibit various activities.

    In FACT, the Port Authority at LGA does prohibit photography from airport grounds without prior permission. For a while, our calls to the police desk gave us that permission, but as several examples shows us, it seems that is not the case.

    Photography from inside the terminal is generally only done when there are rwy 22 landings and there's no where else to go, and even then, you're shooting through dirty, thick, green glass windows. That, along with the recent developments, make me now urge people to use other off-airport locations for spotting in this runway configuration. This is for the time being, as things may change one day. It's just adaption to the powers that be at this point in time.

    I also need to remind people that NO ONE without MY permission, is to tell or call ANYBODY and say that they are a member of NYCAviation, unless a person in an authoritative position asks you (never lie to police). NYCAviation.com in no way represents you, nor do you represent NYCAviation. If someone drops the NYCA name to police in a bad police incident, you will lose all of my support for potentially tarnishing the reputation of myself and this site (reputation is subjective, but you get the idea lol).
    Email me anytime at [email protected].

  14. #29
    Senior Member FlyingColors's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    847
    I could say something........but no matter what its going to be wrong..
    "my finger on the shutter button, while my eye is over my shoulder"

  15. #30
    Senior Member Tom_Turner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,193
    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingColors
    I could say something........but no matter what its going to be wrong..
    took the words out of my mouth...
    "Keep 'em Flying"

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •