Also, I meant to add the following. Now, I HATE this woman. But this is the FIRST time I have ever agreed with her.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w7sMjFiGp4
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Also, I meant to add the following. Now, I HATE this woman. But this is the FIRST time I have ever agreed with her.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w7sMjFiGp4
You are all missing the point here. All of these issues work together. Does profiling work? Of course but it doesn't catch everyone looking to do bad to us. Profiling alone won't keep us safe, full body scanners doesn't catch everyone. Coulter is way off here. If we started aggressive profiling AQ would just change tactics and begin to recruit women or some other diversion. They are always changing to adjust to our measures and we have to adjust as well. Walk through the scanners and stop whining. Nobody is going to post a picture of your xrayed body on youtube. Jeez.
Very interesting post. I've enjoyed reading the responses. On my first trip to Europe, I was quite taken aback after arriving at Schiphol Airport to see fully uniformed and heavily armed soldiers patrolling the corridors. I do however feel the US Government and TSA are going beyond what they should be allowed to do. I don't feel any safer flying because of them. Yes, it is your individual choice to fly as opposed to other transportation means but we should not be made to feel degraded by our choice. We really don't have to just put up with it.
Am I the only one who doesn't see the big deal over the scanners? From the images I have seen, it's a very skeletal, almost corpse like image, I can't see anyone even wanting to keep looking at something like that. Much less getting off to it. Plus, isn't it less radiation than getting an x-ray from a doctor?
Plus, isn't it less radiation than getting an x-ray from a doctor?
Highly suspect and debatable. I recall reading that a scan takes 20 seconds. I went to the dentist last week and it was a 1 second long scan per image.
Effects on the body are cumulative, just like smoking. One cigarette does not kill you, its the constant exposure to it that can have deliterious effects. 20 seconds per scan on each flight.....there is no math on that and I doubt EMSHighway could support data otherwise.
Nik Perriwen and others, for the record, I couldn't care les about TSA Joe seeing my junk. Heck, I'll whip it out and rest it on a table for everyone to have a look (enter magnifying glass jokes here).
The simple fact is that the technology may affect the body. And I dont feel comfortable knowing how the gov was wrong in Agent Orange, 9-11 dust and I am sure other examples could be cited.
Legistators can wax poetic about the safety but hte majority of these guys use private jets and never expose themselves to the nonsense.
The video is about three years old, notice the white shirt on the TSO. The child alarmed the WTMD, that's why she needed to be screened. There have been more training for screening children.
Does anything seem logical? That's why we have so much uproar. Everyone wants security except when it comes to them.
The scan doesn't take 20 seconds, the whole process of the scan and reading it does. One scan equates to 10 minutes at altitude. I have the data, I get the data, I read the data. If I didn't think it was safe I wouldn't be going through it myself.
I would rather see the Thermal scanners being used and hopefully down the line they will. It will get rid of the radiation and privacy problem. They are just not there yet.
Sorry, I meant to answer this earlier. I think this situation is different than the Agent Orange and Ground Zero in the fact that front line people have the information here. We get the radiation test results, we talk to the technicians working the machines. In the other incidents the military said the defoliant was fine and the EPA just lied.
We are able to see the figures first hand and trust me with the amount of people who have the info if there was a problem, there would be whistle blowing. We have independent agencies come in and do studies on the radiation from the baggage and checkpoint screening equipment and the technicians run radiation tests monthly.
Not only that but it's not fail safe. The Times Square bomber is a perfect example of a terrorist that becomes one later in his life and on paper looks like a peaceful naturalized citizen. Yet when he began to become radical it was too late and would have never been on our radar. Profiling will find the obvious individuals but many can still avoid detection by a number of means which is why we need the last line of defense at the gate.Quote:
God, I don't think I would ever agree with Bill O'Reilly. The ACLU jumped all over profiling after 9/11. It has been proven you can't look for the person that looks like a terrorist because there isn't a cookie cutter description.
So I tried the "If you touch my junk..." line on my girlfriend only I changed the ending to "I'll have you arrested for assault with a sexy weapon" and it worked very,very well. No video on what happened next though.
Sorry, I didn't want to start a whole new thread just for that. Seriously, though, this thing's still in the teething stages and I'm sure when the dust settles we may see some compromises- they already dropped the requirement for pilots so who knows?
Damn, I just posted that
No we didn't, Pilots are exempt from the AIT only, they have been all along. The pilot in Tennessee wasn't flying the plane, he was a passenger so subject to screening as every one else.
Before you post a link to a news article about pilots showing two forms of ID to get past screening it isn't true. It is something the unions put out.
Oh Boy.... :rolleyes:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/video/vid...v=468623653117
Video has been taken down, however National Opt Out Day is one day closer & TSA here is worried about it. They've already had meetings over it.
Why are they worried? They aren't the ones traveling. I would just sit there and watch all the travelers just sit in the airport all day and marvel at the grid lock. If they are going to do something stupid and bring the busiest travel day let em.
I never posted any link, not sure what you mean there, unless you meant it as a comment to posters in general.
I do however remember reading that pilots had to go through the machines and pat-downs like everybody else. If the news media screwed that up, that's ****ty journalism on their part. It brings to light the whole "who is telling the truth anymore" problem in news. Anyway, thank you for clearing that up for me :cool:
That video is on the front page of our site now: http://nycaviation.com/2010/11/video...ew-commercial/
As Chairman of a Frequent Flyer Advocacy Group, I have just made a blog post regarding the new "enhancements". You can read it below-the title is "Find Another Way".
Having followed the controversy surrounding the TSA's new "enhanced" screening procedures, and the very vocal public response to them, we think it is apparent that the message being sent to the TSA from most Americans, the flying public, and members of Congress to the TSA is definitely "Find Another Way"....and FFOCUS agrees completely!
In taking another look at the new policies and the incidents to which they are a response, I have made some interesting observations:
The shoe bomber who tried to ignite his shoe in flight boarded his flight in Paris, NOT in the United States.
The so-called underwear bomber boarded his flight in Amsterdam, NOT in the United States, after connecting from somewhere in the middle east.
Note - neither of these attempts originated here - meaning that just maybe the planners of these attacks realized that American security was already good and would likely detect such devices. So WHY are we being subjected to these "enhancements"?
This would be a great time to examine the methods used by Israeli security teams screening passengers in Israel. They rely more on "soft" methods such as behavioral observation and interviewing all passengers during the check in and screening process. We have heard from more than once source that such attackers would likely have been detected if such screening were permitted. Note they are not referring to racial profiling of any type, but BEHAVIORAL observations. There is certainly a difference.
The recent agreement to exempt airline pilots from such screening can be interpreted a number of ways...and not all good for the TSA. Does it open a possible door for a potential attacker? What other safeguards would replace the "enhanced" screening? Why couldn't these methods be adapted for the general public? At the least, perhaps this concession by the TSA gives reason to believe their new policies are not as well thought out as they claim, and could give some support to a number of lawsuits by regular travelers. Who knows?
With regard to the body scanners or Nude-O-Scopes as they are called by some, where is the ACTUAL test evidence of the radiation exposure to passengers? Such testing should be conducted by a third party, NOT the government, and should be released forthwith...but health hazard or not, we have already seen abuses of this technology, such as images being retained and saved.
And what is the truth behind Michael Chertoff's involvement with the company who sold the scanners to the TSA? Is this a backroom sweetheart deal or what? If so it should be investigated thoroughly.
At the worst, these new "enhanced" screening measures do not appear to make us safer, and the TSA's argument that they do is not fully proven, but they do cause further disruption of air commerce, meaning at the end of the day it is a victory of sorts for the enemy. It is time for the TSA to rethink these procedures, work on viable alternatives which do not compromise our safety or security, and do the right thing while keeping us safe. And Congress should in fact look into this more closely and mandate change if necessary.
We are not sure what will come out of the protest or National Opt Out event scheduled for this Wednesday, but it is sure to direct attention at the issue...
Time to Find Another Way!
I will try to give you my personal, unofficial comments as someone with knowledge of the situation. Some will be just the answers without personal opinion. Others will have my personal opinion. Just because I say something doesn't mean I absolutely agree with it.
True these incidents happen over seas but there is the Intel and possibility of it happening here thus the enhancements.Quote:
The shoe bomber who tried to ignite his shoe in flight boarded his flight in Paris, NOT in the United States.
The so-called underwear bomber boarded his flight in Amsterdam, NOT in the United States, after connecting from somewhere in the middle east.
Note - neither of these attempts originated here - meaning that just maybe the planners of these attacks realized that American security was already good and would likely detect such devices. So WHY are we being subjected to these "enhancements"?
The Israeli methods are done on a much smaller scale than in the US. There are only a few commercial airports as opposed to the 430 in the US. It can be easily controlled in Israel and the airports were designed for these measures. In the US checkpoints have been shoehorned into archways, hallway and basically anywhere they could be stuck.Quote:
This would be a great time to examine the methods used by Israeli security teams screening passengers in Israel. They rely more on "soft" methods such as behavioral observation and interviewing all passengers during the check in and screening process. We have heard from more than once source that such attackers would likely have been detected if such screening were permitted. Note they are not referring to racial profiling of any type, but BEHAVIORAL observations. There is certainly a difference.
I think the Israeli methods should be deployed and some have but it won't go without even more backlash.
You do know that the only thing that will change (for now) is that pilots are exempt from the AIT. They were already exempt since they are allowed to keep their shoes on as long as they don't alarm. They will still be going through the WTMD and if they alarm a pat down will be performed. The pilot who refused in Tennessee was not flying the plane but was a passenger and as such was subject to the screening of every other passenger. Anyone who passes through the checkpoint is screened. Perhaps the method for flight crews should be to check in at their operations area and go to the plane through an operational door. Some of the problems are the airlines operational areas can only be gotten to by going through the checkpoint. How can you just let a person who has an airline uniform on just walk passed a checkpoint? It does open the door for a potential attacker to just get a uniform.Quote:
The recent agreement to exempt airline pilots from such screening can be interpreted a number of ways...and not all good for the TSA. Does it open a possible door for a potential attacker? What other safeguards would replace the "enhanced" screening? Why couldn't these methods be adapted for the general public? At the least, perhaps this concession by the TSA gives reason to believe their new policies are not as well thought out as they claim, and could give some support to a number of lawsuits by regular travelers. Who knows?.
The backscatter has been in testing for at least seven years that I know. I first saw it in the labs in 2003. I see the maintenance contractors field radiation test but I do agree if it will aid to relieve concerns they should release independent studies. The only place images can be retained are the machines in the lab. None of the field machines have this capabilities and no one in the field can change the settings.Quote:
With regard to the body scanners or Nude-O-Scopes as they are called by some, where is the ACTUAL test evidence of the radiation exposure to passengers? Such testing should be conducted by a third party, NOT the government, and should be released forthwith...but health hazard or not, we have already seen abuses of this technology, such as images being retained and saved.
Agreed, it should be investigated.Quote:
And what is the truth behind Michael Chertoff's involvement with the company who sold the scanners to the TSA? Is this a backroom sweetheart deal or what? If so it should be investigated thoroughly.
The comment of if the pat downs make you safer not is an opinion. The threat has moved away from the effectiveness of a 1970 WTMD technology and unfortunately the only methods right now are a body scan and or physical search. There have been some of us pushing for the increased study of the Thermal Body Scanners. They do not emit energy toward the passenger, they do not "see through" clothing so while they perform similar functions of the AIT they do not have the issues. Unfortunately they are not to the point of being certified yet.Quote:
At the worst, these new "enhanced" screening measures do not appear to make us safer, and the TSA's argument that they do is not fully proven, but they do cause further disruption of air commerce, meaning at the end of the day it is a victory of sorts for the enemy. It is time for the TSA to rethink these procedures, work on viable alternatives which do not compromise our safety or security, and do the right thing while keeping us safe. And Congress should in fact look into this more closely and mandate change if necessary.
Methods are constantly being looked at by the TSA and adjusted for the threat. For some this looks like inconsistency. Being able to adjust to the threat is not inconsistency. Congress has mandated procedures the TSA uses but they also mandate the limit of 43000 TSOs while adding more responsibilities (Ticket Document Checking, Behavioral Detection Officers and MTA screening) while not increasing the workforce to properly staff the checkpoints. When you see only a few lanes open it isn't because we don't want to open them up, we just don't have the personnel.
Honestly I think it will just cause more pain to fellow passengers. This is a protest at the front lines. The front lines do not make the policies, they just do their jobs.Quote:
We are not sure what will come out of the protest or National Opt Out event scheduled for this Wednesday, but it is sure to direct attention at the issue...
It is always time to find better ways.Quote:
Time to Find Another Way!
Art:
Right on. TSA MUST find another way. I worked today & just happen to witness one of these things & it's beyond disgusting. I had to leave before I saw any more.
Some one from the local TSA told me they are worried about opt out day. And while I know this is a minority, I know people who plan on going through at least twice Wed to tie them up. They are either going to set off the alarm "by accident" of course or "forget" something in their car.
EMSHighway,
Thank you for your thoughtful response. While you do give a good counterpoint, there are some issues on which we will agree to disagree. In any case, I do appreciate your point of view, and I do thank you for respecting mine and those other reasonable objections to the new procedures.
Thanks for what you do - but we maintain things need to change.
Propaganda statement. How do you propose we screen pax then? No matter how good you profile or interview (which is impossible due to # of pax that travel) Scanners are our best last line of defense. Until someone can invent something that detects explosives in people without being evasive.Quote:
"Find Another Way"....
If the FF of the world want us to go back to the metal detectors and prayer fine but somewhere down the line a plane will come down and people will die and then people are going to wonder how a terrorist got on with explosives and then we can tell them we didn't want somebody to see our genitals.
I don't mind having intelligent conversations and respect points of views that don't degrade to name calling or blaming the line personnel (if it's not their fault).
Art I do have some bad news for ISP... They are coming... Can't say when but they will be there.
The lead story on NBC nightly news was the new gropes at the airports & how we are fed up with them. Pissy is running scared & said they might change. Can't remember exact wording, but he said things are evolving. Even Mrs Clinton said she wouldn't want to go through this. Again I also took away from it that he is very much worried about Nat. opt out day.
Nick, is it possible you may also be missing a point? Who cares about the pics, its the safety of the tech I question.
True, Tim McVeigh is the everyday example. AS for O"reilly, I can't say I usually agree.
I appreciate your badge of safely but I remain skeptical. Art brought up some valid points that I suspected as well.
I'm just glad that I got some great days experiences flying before 9-11. Even had some great ones after 9-11. But lately, it just gets worse and worse.
I have met Mr. Pistole (please use his correct name, you are on NYCAviation not Flyertalk, OK Coachy :eek:) and I don't see him as one to run scared. Would you want to have Mrs. Clinton go through it? The TSO at the monitor would probably scratch their eyes out :smile:.
Understandable. Here are the websites of the two companies making the Thermal Scanners:
http://www.isconimaging.com/
http://www.thruvision.com/Our_Produc...s_Overview.htm
I doubt the people that designed these things would have signed off on them if they emitted dangerous levels of radiation. It's another propaganda statement designed to take our eye off the ball.Quote:
its the safety of the tech I question
EL AL's security is impossible at American airports. It would cost too much and take too much time. EL AL demands you get to airport much earlier than we have to now and you talk about liberty you realize they check your entire background? People are crying about someone seeing a x-ray image of their breasts but would allow someone knowing details of their whole life. Jeez.Quote:
I think the Israeli methods should be deployed and some have but it won't go without even more backlash.
Worse than your flight exploding at 37,000 feet? I will take a scanner any day.Quote:
I'm just glad that I got some great days experiences flying before 9-11. Even had some great ones after 9-11. But lately, it just gets worse and worse
EMS, I don't want to anyone to have to go through one of these unless there is some compelling reason. IMO the terrorist have already won here. If the terrorist get to the airports some one has already screwed up. The stupid stuff just needs to stop. These people are laughing their arses off at us.