Malaysian 777 crash in Russia

[Ari707]

Seeing reports of a Malaysian 777 with 280 pax and 15 crew down in Ukraine near the Russian border

Possibly MAS 17 AMS-KUL

[captmjk16]

Seems as if it's been all but confirmed that it's Flight 17. Not sure if the rumors of surface to air missile activity are true, but apparently two Ukranian aircraft have been shot down in that area in the past few days.

[SengaB]

Got photos of MRD at EWR in 2002 I guess it was the "Freedom Space" painted one.
2014/07/17 10:21 MAS17 - 9M-MRD Malaysia B772 Wow very strange 2 lost in such a short time frame. Registration is 9M-MRD. https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3909/14674262821_ffa2530a00.jpg
Senga

[NYCA News]

NYCAviation:

BREAKING: Malaysian 777 Shot Down Over Ukraine (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/nycaviation/~3/lAVUs0tS0CQ/)

Multiple agencies are reporting that a Malaysian Airlines 777-200 (registered 9M-MRD) has been shot down by a surface-to-air missile over eastern Ukraine, an area that has been a recent hotbed of violence. Malaysian Flight 17 was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, was reported to have 280 passengers, a crew of 15, and traveling at […]http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/nycaviation/~4/lAVUs0tS0CQ
[Click to Read Full Article (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/nycaviation/~3/lAVUs0tS0CQ/)]

[Gintaras B.]

Looks like it was this aircraft:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/9MMRD

http://e0.photos.flightcdn.com/photos/retriever/e36882386ba4a0f3ec60611f2e1e4673c7b71cc2

[neurodave757]

Reports say that it was shot down by a missile of some sort, as was a cargo plane on Monday. Coincidentally, a minister (from Ukraine?) was reported to have said they "just shot down an enemy aircraft" around the time this plane went down.

RIP to all the gone.

[TriStatePlaneSpotting]

OMG what has happened to this world..... First, Malaysian Air 370, now Malaysian Air 17! This may be some evidence to another Malaysian 370 conspiracy theory. Do you think this is a conspiracy against Malaysian Air or do you think this is just coincidental? It sucks that this is what people do nowadays to a plane that is originating and arriving into countries in which Ukraine or Russia has nothing to do with them! We lost 295 lives and a really beautiful special livery!

RIP to those 295 lives and the beautiful 9M-MRD! :mad:

[captmjk16]

Pictures of the wreckage seem to indicate that the aircraft was no longer painted in a special livery, and is consistent with a high altitude aerial breakup of some sort. There are bodies scatted around the wreckage with images being shown on the 24 hour news networks.

Regardless, it's a terrible and senseless loss of life, RIP to all who were lost.

[Gintaras B.]

FYI:

Some interesting facts about the MAS B772 :

First flight : 7.17.1997
Last flight : 7.17.2014
Flightno: MH17
Plane Age: 17 years

not too many "17's"?

[adscram14]

This is just horrific and heartbreaking. My thoughts are out to those families. I can't even fathom what on earth went wrong to have a missile strike a 777.

Here is 9M-MRD departing LAX just a few months ago:
http://www.asheinhausphotography.com/Aviation/LAX/December-2013January-2014/i-mMVqNG2/0/L/9M-MRD-L.jpg (http://www.asheinhausphotography.com/Aviation/LAX/December-2013January-2014/i-mMVqNG2/A)

[Perriwen]

This is just horrific and heartbreaking. My thoughts are out to those families. I can't even fathom what on earth went wrong to have a missile strike a 777.

Here is 9M-MRD departing LAX just a few months ago:


Based on deleted Facebook posts by Russian separatists, they thought it was a Ukrainian military plane and boasted about the shoot down, saying 'stay out of our airspace'. They then deleted it and denied the post after news came out that it was an airliner. Also, happened 18 years to the day of TWA 800. Creepy.

Anyway...Russia has locked down the crash site and sent the black boxes to Moscow, according to the news right now.

[felipegcmh]

This may be some evidence to another Malaysian 370 conspiracy theory. Do you think this is a conspiracy against Malaysian Air or do you think this is just coincidental?

I think that

1. There is no conspiracy, it's an active civil war zone, and this is not the first time that a commercial airliner gets shot down by mistake (or by "mistake"). There is no evidence of anything.

2. Your age must be between 13 and 16.

Seriously, starting to discuss conspiracy theories and actively sparking debate when the coroner hasn't even finished counting bodies is immature and not cool.


Based on deleted Facebook posts by Russian separatists, they thought it was a Ukrainian military plane and boasted about the shoot down, saying 'stay out of our airspace'. They then deleted it and denied the post after news came out that it was an airliner. Also, happened 18 years to the day of TWA 800. Creepy.


The problem is that either side could have done it to blame the other, or to finally get other countries to intervene. Both have pretty much the same Russian equipment, so remains of any missile won't clear up right away who did it. And with this kind of publicity there won't be any more boasting of who did it, but rather just finger pointing.


RIP.

[Gintaras B.]

Based on deleted Facebook posts by Russian separatists, they thought it was a Ukrainian military plane and boasted about the shoot down, saying 'stay out of our airspace'. They then deleted it and denied the post after news came out that it was an airliner.

Facebook and Youtube are very credible...for WHO??? WHO?...I don't hear.....:confused:


Anyway...Russia has locked down the crash site and sent the black boxes to Moscow, according to the news right now.

How did Russia locked down the crash site in another country? "News" says that? "My Radio Talks To Me"...

"News" - New York Daily News:

http://nydn.us/1nBg8QF:


A Ukrainian official said the commercial airliner was shot down by a Russian-made Buk missile battery.

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said the plane was brought down in an act of terrorism.

Rush making such claims without any investigation - looks like did it those, who DO ALREADY KNOW ALL ABOUT......

[Gerard]

Anyway...Russia has locked down the crash site and sent the black boxes to Moscow, according to the news right now.

Uh not sure where you read that. The scene is a mess and being contaminated by the locals walking all over the place!! Sucks for them because lots of hazardous materials in the crash site!! Saw some local FD working with hoses and they didnt even have any bunker gear, helmets, masks to protect themselves!! Just saw pictures of rescue guys and photographers just walking on the hot smoking debris!! Thats just crazy!!

[moose135]

Seriously, starting to discuss conspiracy theories and actively sparking debate when the coroner hasn't even finished counting bodies is immature and not cool.
You must have never read the A.net forums...

[Perriwen]

Uh not sure where you read that. The scene is a mess and being contaminated by the locals walking all over the place!! Sucks for them because lots of hazardous materials in the crash site!! Saw some local FD working with hoses and they didnt even have any bunker gear, helmets, masks to protect themselves!! Just saw pictures of rescue guys and photographers just walking on the hot smoking debris!! Thats just crazy!!

Read, no. But it was a topic of discussion in the breaking news when I made the comment five hours ago. :p

[Perriwen]

Facebook and Youtube are very credible...for WHO??? WHO?...I don't hear.....:confused:



How did Russia locked down the crash site in another country? "News" says that? "My Radio Talks To Me"...

"News" - New York Daily News:

http://nydn.us/1nBg8QF:




Rush making such claims without any investigation - looks like did it those, who DO ALREADY KNOW ALL ABOUT......

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696389/That-blast-look-smoke-Sick-boast-laughing-rebels-saw-MH17-hit-missile-hours-leader-boasted-We-warned-not-fly-sky.html

"Laughing rebels filmed the plane as it crashed, gleefully bragging ‘That was a blast – look at the smoke!’ while a fireball rose from the debris.
One of the voices is believed to be militia commander Igor Strelkov, who then penned a triumphant war cry on Twitter, saying: ‘We warned you – do not fly in “our sky”.’
A sickening mobile phone video posted online shows a pall of black smoke billowing over the crash site as three rebels provide an excited commentary.
The extraordinary footage – apparently filmed by the shooters themselves – charts the terrible final moments of the doomed airliner."

You were saying?

[captmjk16]

I don't think the scene is "locked down" per se, but sources have been indicating most of the day that the rebels in the area are not allowing Ukrainian government officials into the area, and there have been claims that the black boxes have been found and are on their way to Moscow. I don't think "Russia" is locking it down, but it wouldn't be surprising if some of their special operations/KGB types are down there helping the rebels hold security. I'm guessing that's the root of the "locked down by Russia" rumor.

By now US officials have confirmed that it was some form of BUK missile (likely via boots on the ground intel sources and/or satellite surveillance) fired by someone other than the Ukrainian armed forces. I think the question now has shifted to who pulled the trigger and why... I'm sure the next few days will be full of accusations, propaganda, and misinformation regardless of what really happened.

[megatop412]

Folks,

Let's please be sensitive about this incident. Children have perished in this event. Unless I am mistaken none of you are involved in the investigation so everything being said here is purely speculative. I try to avoid opining about causal factors until there is some consensus among investigative bodies(not youtube or facebook), and the process tends to take weeks/months/years, not hours.

God Bless the passengers and crew.

[Gerard]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696389/That-blast-look-smoke-Sick-boast-laughing-rebels-saw-MH17-hit-missile-hours-leader-boasted-We-warned-not-fly-sky.html


The Daily Mail is like the British version of the NY Post!! Take what they write with lots of speculation.
Actually there are recordings of pro-Russian separatists discussing the attack!! Heard them on CNN. Very chilling!! Sounds like these idiots thought it was a military plane and fired away, then as the debris came down they realized their mistake!! THis is what happens when you let amateurs operate sophisticated weaponry with no supervision.

[Gerard]

[QUOTE=captmjk16;501934]I don't think the scene is "locked down" per se, but sources have been indicating most of the day that the rebels in the area are not allowing Ukrainian government officials into the area,[QUOTE]

Have you seen pictures? Its not locked down at all!! Its like a friggin tourist attraction!! People climbing over everything!! Amazing and awful!!

[moose135]

THis is what happens when you let amateurs operate sophisticated weaponry with no supervision.
Tell that to the US Navy...

[Perriwen]

The Daily Mail is like the British version of the NY Post!! Take what they write with lots of speculation.
Actually there are recordings of pro-Russian separatists discussing the attack!! Heard them on CNN. Very chilling!! Sounds like these idiots thought it was a military plane and fired away, then as the debris came down they realized their mistake!! THis is what happens when you let amateurs operate sophisticated weaponry with no supervision.

You ding the Daily Mail for speculation then cite CNN? :p

Seriously, though, the part I posted isn't speculation. The video exists, as you just backed up with what you saw on TV, and screenshots exist of that post by the separatist leader (and we know it's his account). As for the people climbing all over the wreckage...who are the people? Residents of that area? Other separatists? Were they let in or already present in the general area when it happened? Ten miles is a wide area. Just because you see people in pictures, it doesn't mean what numerous sources are reporting (including Ukraine) is inaccurate. I'm not getting the desperation for denial...but people are getting upset to the point of lashing out and personal attacks when information that conflicts with their take on the incident is posted.

[captmjk16]

I don't think the scene is "locked down" per se, but sources have been indicating most of the day that the rebels in the area are not allowing Ukrainian government officials into the area,

Have you seen pictures? Its not locked down at all!! Its like a friggin tourist attraction!! People climbing over everything!! Amazing and awful!!

I've seen the pictures, it's a tourist attraction to those in the area, but all the reports indicate that they're not letting government officials from Ukraine anywhere near the debris. Like I said, closed to government officials and investigative authorities, but not to everyone living nearby. I'm under the impression from further reports and footage that the separatist rebels have been attempting to keep people away from the wreckage more as time has gone on.

And Moose, that's so relevant and worth noting. This is a mistake (Or "mistake" depending on whose side you're on) that has been made in the past by the US, Russia, and Ukraine (among others) by highly trained military forces, albeit with less sophisticated equipment than most of the missiles in use today.

Regardless of intent or origin, this is certainly a tragedy and my thoughts are with all those who lost friends, family, and loved ones today.

[Gerard]

I've seen the pictures, it's a tourist attraction to those in the area, but all the reports indicate that they're not letting government officials from Ukraine anywhere near the debris. Like I said, closed to government officials and investigative authorities, but not to everyone living nearby. I'm under the impression from further reports and footage that the separatist rebels have been attempting to keep people away from the wreckage more as time has gone on.


Yup, and as time goes on the crime scene gets more and more contaminated!!
Oh and I will take CNN over the Daily Mail ANYTIME!! :tongue:

[gonzalu]

...and still no one knows anything ... :cool:

[Gintaras B.]

...and still no one knows anything ... :cool:

....Except those, who did it.....

[Gerard]

....Except those, who did it.....
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/18/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

I saw the one guy on CNN and he said everyone walked away from the scene ashen!! The bodies just lying there was horrible!!

[Gintaras B.]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/18/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

I saw the one guy on CNN and he said everyone walked away from the scene ashen!! The bodies just lying there was horrible!!

CNN isn't news channel - it's a TV Propaganda channel for shape people's minds to one or other direction....

Best article so far on so-called major news outlet I've seen, it was:

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 tragedy raises many questions (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/malaysia-airlines-flight-tragedy-raises-questions-article-1.1871372) written by a some guy named Phil Derner - do you know him?...:cool:

Gerard, CNN and other do use terms: "Pro-Russia"...if there is "Pro-Russia",then it should be "Against-Russia"??? Who does need that? Think about...
In Reality, In Ukraine are - Fascist Government forces and Anti-Fascist - anti Ukrainian Fascist Government...and hundreds and thousands fleeing people a DAY of russians from "FREE" Ukraine...- does CNN, BBC cover that?

Why should those so-called terrorists, separatists to give anything to CNN, BBC?

Gerard, if you've been robbed, would you submit evidence to thieves that have robbed you?

At the End...CNN id Full of ****...

[Gerard]

At the End...CNN id Full of ****...

Sorry you believe that!!

[Gintaras B.]

Sorry you believe that!!

I wouldn't speculate on MH17 crash, neither I would say they - Ukraine's military have done this again, but they do have an experience of shooting down passenger aircraft:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

[Gerard]

I wouldn't speculate on MH17 crash,


Nothing to speculate. The evidence is growing and growing!! But thankfully the bodies of those lost souls who lay in the hot sun for days then unceremoniously and without dignity dumped like garbage onto a freight car will finally find peace with their familes!! I hope those responsible never ever find any peace in their putrid lives!!

[Gintaras B.]

The evidence is growing and growing!!

What evidence Gerard? do you have some and hide or "My Radio Talks To Me" "evidence"? :rolleyes: :tongue:

Do you think I don't have TV or access to CNN, BBC and such? Do you think, I don't know what's in newspapers?

No one has any reliable evidence as of today, so, Gerard, relax...If anyone did have - it would be presented...so far - just speculations and propaganda thing....

This came across:

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/07/20/rebel-sam-system-lacked-id-capability.html?comp=1198882887570&rank=8

[Perriwen]

What evidence Gerard? do you have some and hide or "My Radio Talks To Me" "evidence"? :rolleyes: :tongue:

Do you think I don't have TV or access to CNN, BBC and such? Do you think, I don't know what's in newspapers?

No one has any reliable evidence as of today, so, Gerard, relax...If anyone did have - it would be presented...so far - just speculations and propaganda thing....

This came across:

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/07/20/rebel-sam-system-lacked-id-capability.html?comp=1198882887570&rank=8

But, you also have this: http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/21/su-27s-escorted-mh17/

[Gerard]

What evidence Gerard? do you have some and hide or "My Radio Talks To Me" "evidence"? :rolleyes:



Damn you found out my secret!!
Thats it, I've been outed!! Wonder why those black helicopters have been circling my house!!
BTW if I was any more relaxed I'd be asleep...which reminds me....

[mirrodie]

Very sad situation. Latest reports say they didn't know it wasn't a military plane they shot down.

I posted about it on my Facebook. Most non avgeeks dont know this was the jet once painted in the FREEDOM of SPACE livery.
Sad sad irony that a plane carrying this name gets show down. Why? Airspace conflict.

[Gintaras B.]

MH17 did crash in territory of Ukraine.

What normal proceedings when a foreign aircraft of foreign airlines crash in some remote area of any given country?

What I've learned, in this case, a country, where an aircraft has crashed, should do:

-If any war going on - should stop it right away...
- Invite RIGHT away reps of crashed airlines
-Invite any international experts to investigate a passenger aircraft...

To give any evidence - parts of crashed aircraft to an airline.

How were all the normal rules followed in MH17 crash?

[Gerard]

I noticed yesterday it was an Royal Australian Air Force C-17 that flew in many of the bodies from Ukraine to the Nertherlands. Any particular reason? Maybe they felt Dutch pilots would be tool emotionally attached to fly?

[Gintaras B.]

Maybe This (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-crisis-pm-arseniy-yatsenyuk-resigns-amid-government-collapse-1.2716885) has some links to investigation on "black boxes" of MH17?

[moose135]

I noticed yesterday it was an Royal Australian Air Force C-17 that flew in many of the bodies from Ukraine to the Nertherlands. Any particular reason? Maybe they felt Dutch pilots would be tool emotionally attached to fly?
There were 37 Australian citizens lost on MH17, and that country sent a 45-person team to assist in the investigation. It's quite likely they flew in on the C-17, and it was available for the mission. The Dutch do have access to 3 NATO C-17s but otherwise only have C-130s for transport duty.

[Gerard]

There were 37 Australian citizens lost on MH17, and that country sent a 45-person team to assist in the investigation. It's quite likely they flew in on the C-17, and it was available for the mission. The Dutch do have access to 3 NATO C-17s but otherwise only have C-130s for transport duty.

John thanks!! Looks like Australia wants to be involved in securing the crash scene also and might send in armed police!! Oh boy!! Stay tuned!!

[Gintaras B.]

Dunno how many did notice, but "Investigation" of MH17 crash ended up in silence very quickly - like it never didn't happen - crash of Malaysian 777, flight MH17...I hope, some do remember MH17... Gerard...what you have to say about?....:rolleyes:

Crash of MH17 > US/EU "Evidence" > anti-russian propaganda > Silence...???

So...what and how did it happen? :rolleyes:

[PhilDernerJr]

I think they moved on from it just like any other news event. We know what caused it and that's that. Being a big deal in our minds doesn't mean that the rest of the world will follow suit, unfortunately.

Both Malaysian incidents are still discussed on the news in Southeast Asia daily, btw.

[Gintaras B.]

We know what caused it and that's that.

"WE"? "We do know"? How?

I don't and I don't believe in media's speculations...So far, I've seen official evidence presented by russian side. US and EU just kept saying: "we do have evidennce" but none was presented...
I've seen evidence on Flightaware - that that day MH17 flight went way north than usuall...What caused it?

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/08/evidence-now-conclusive-2-ukrainian-government-fighter-jets-shoot-malaysian-airliner-buk-missile-ground-shot.html



http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-mh17-michael-bociurkiw-talks-about-being-first-at-the-crash-site-1.2721007

[gonzalu]

Gintaras, you also believe that India, China, Australia are also not being honest in their reporting of the known facts? Japan, Mongolia? South Africa? Argentina? Brazil? Chile? Mexico? Canada? Switzerland? Norway? Iceland?

I noticed EVERYONE reported the same thing... except Russia.. they seem to be the lone contrarian... no?

[PhilDernerJr]

I'm confused by "went way north than usual." Routes changes every day. What is "usual?"

[Gintaras B.]

I'm confused by "went way north than usual." Routes changes every day. What is "usual?"

Phil,

Why you're confused? Your article:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/malaysia-airlines-flight-tragedy-raises-questions-article-1.1871372

And from that article:


Currently, it is not yet confirmed exactly which notices were in place before the accident, what decisions and determinations Malaysia Airlines operations made in the planning phase of the flight, or what airspace or weather constraints may have forced the aircraft through the region.



Day of the crash, and after reading your article, I've checked Flightaware 10 and more days prior July 17 of that flight...All pattern of that flight were close to shoreline on Black Sea...All of 10-20 flights before day of the crash...
On July 17 it went ~300 miles north of usual route...It's not "weather constraints"...as in your article...

and...


I think they moved on from it just like any other news event. We know what caused it and that's that. Being a big deal in our minds doesn't mean that the rest of the world will follow suit, unfortunately.

Both Malaysian incidents are still discussed on the news in Southeast Asia daily, btw.

This event, from first day was followed by "event in 1983 - Korean 747"...It's not Propaganda purposes..."just a reminder"...

Some didn't forget from the 1st day of MH17 crash "event" years ago...but, when black boxes were given to "International investigators" - "they moved on"....Silence...

I'm sorry Phil, just a question:

Was 9/11 - "just another news event" to you?


I think they moved on from it just like any other news event.

[PhilDernerJr]

My point is that there is no "usual" route, as the decision of routes are made each day based on various constraints. And it's not just weather that decides routes...it comes down to wind, fuel constraints, airspace constraints, ATC requirements, cost and ability to obtain international overflight permits, volcanoes, conflict zones, maintenance issues, mountain heights, even hazmat on your aircraft, and more. You cited my article, but no where did I say that there was a "usual" route. You tell me it wasn't weather...how many year have you been dispatching aircraft to know what you're talking about?

So I was just trying to see what you meant by that. Instead of explaining, you shot back all defensive, and played a 9/11 card. Seriously?

Though MH17 is a big deal to us as people in aviation, foreign plane crashes are just other news events to the mainstream media around here. I said that, not saying it is MY view, but that I feel that's how the mainstream media looks at it. I even said in my previous post that it wasn't MY view, yet you replied to me as though it was, with accusation and rude questions.

But while you're at it, MH17 and 9/11 are NOTHING alike, and compared, MH17 is tiny, being one plane that was one plane shot down (probably accidentally by incompetence), versus 4 planes, almost 3,000 people, 220 stories of skyscraper, about a dozen buildings, several violent stabbings to overtake the aircraft in an intentional plot to appear on live TV in front of millions. How do the two even compare? And how rude are you to ask me that? How is that even relevant?

[Gerard]

Though MH17 is a big deal to us as people in aviation, foreign plane crashes are just other news events to the mainstream media around here. I said that, not saying it is MY view, but that I feel that's how the mainstream media looks at it


The story will stay relevant as long as it remains interesting or until the news cycle changes (another big story). I actually saw a story about the other MH flight, 37?, and though we hear nothing the search STILL continues, its now in the hands of the Australian govt and I could guarantee if something breaking happened the news would be all over it again!!

[megatop412]

How were all the normal rules followed in MH17 crash?

I don't think it's reasonable to expect the following of normal rules in a war zone(or in any area that doesn't concern itself with the rule of law). Look at all the crash sites that aren't assigned protective personnel- they are looted, with scavengers combing over the the wreckage(and the dead) like they're at a damn swap meet, compromising the entire scene

[Gintaras B.]

The death of one man is a tragedy.
The death of millions is a statistic.

Phil...you play "statistics - what isn't a Tragedy...To You and to many others...Is it rude or not...

I bet...if drunk driver would kill your relative, MH17 or 9/11 would be less tragedy to you...

If your relative would be killed by drunk driver and I would say to you: "who cares about your relative while there were more deaths(Statistics) in 9/11 or MH17"...I would be rude to you...wouldn't I?

What's more important to you? Monetary Damage - buildings, planes - in 9/11...MH17 - STATS... or A One Single Human's Death?

4 planes are you more important versus MH17? Less people in MH17 versus 9/11 plus less 3 planes in Monetary Damages...

Don't you think...that relatives of those who died in MH17 can you call rude when you tell that 9/11 was "bigger tragedy"?

Think about...Am I still rude?













But while you're at it, MH17 and 9/11 are NOTHING alike, and compared, MH17 is tiny, being one plane that was one plane shot down (probably accidentally by incompetence), versus 4 planes, almost 3,000 people, 220 stories of skyscraper, about a dozen buildings, several violent stabbings to overtake the aircraft in an intentional plot to appear on live TV in front of millions. How do the two even compare? And how rude are you to ask me that? How is that even relevant?

[Gintaras B.]

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/701/b3923acad0ceprem-rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf

[PhilDernerJr]

Phil...you play "statistics - what isn't a Tragedy...To You and to many others...Is it rude or not...

I bet...if drunk driver would kill your relative, MH17 or 9/11 would be less tragedy to you...

If your relative would be killed by drunk driver and I would say to you: "who cares about your relative while there were more deaths(Statistics) in 9/11 or MH17"...I would be rude to you...wouldn't I?

What's more important to you? Monetary Damage - buildings, planes - in 9/11...MH17 - STATS... or A One Single Human's Death?

4 planes are you more important versus MH17? Less people in MH17 versus 9/11 plus less 3 planes in Monetary Damages...

Don't you think...that relatives of those who died in MH17 can you call rude when you tell that 9/11 was "bigger tragedy"?

Think about...Am I still rude?

Yes, it is different if you have a connection to it. I am looking at it from a statistical perspective. Again, you're missing the entire point. You're shooting the messenger by coming after me for pointing out what the MEDIA feels, not me.

So because you're coming after me and attacking something that IS very personal to me, YES, you are not only being rude, but you are being something that I won't say on this message board.

[NIKV69]

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/320x240q90/911/UyRMSp.jpg

[Gintaras B.]

So because you're coming after me and attacking something that IS very personal to me, YES, you are not only being rude, but you are being something that I won't say on this message board.

Phil, I'm not attacking you neither I'm coming after you...It's a discussion and looks that we both have different views from different perspectives...I wouldn't want to have any further discussion here...it's ok on PM...with some kind of discussion diplomacy...

I can publicly apologize to you if you feel offended by me...And... I do not want to have any kind of anger on each other....