JFK Takeoff Routines

[Vinny Ohare]

I have been in the same house in Broad Channel for over 40 years and in the past 2 weeks the planes have been coming almost directly over my house. Today I went outside and looked at what has been happening and found it strange.

I don't know what the frequency of takeoffs is suppose to be but it seems to me that planes are taking off more often and closer together but after takeoff they are going in 3 or 4 different routes. Todays planes took off over 31L (I think that is right runway) and going out over Howard Beach. First plane makes a hard left and comes over the middle of Broad Channel heading right back towards the JFK control tower. It seems like 30 seconds later the same thing except the plane takes a wider route and the 3rd goes out over the ocean.

At first I thought these planes were coming into land on 22R(I Think) but the planes are going up and not coming down. Today when I saw it I think it was about 215 pm.

I have to walk down the end of my block and watch these planes bank so hard since I can see the end of the runway from there.

[gonzalu]

Go to the bottom and study the departure procedures. The Kennedy One dep is the most popular in my experience lately...

Note the Canarsie and Breezy Point climbs as well as the less used (if ever) Bridge Climb

http://www.airnav.com/airport/JFK

[Vinny Ohare]

Thanks Manny

After looking at that chart I want to say they are using the Bridge climb more often and making a hard left over the channel. Next time I see this I guess I will mark down the time and check flight aware?

[Speedbird1]

The rarest of all, is the ILS 13L Approach into JFK. I can't remember when it was last used.

[gonzalu]

Last year, during a very very heavy rainstorm, they were on the ILS 13L which was odd to see them coming in straight from the city ...

Vinny, the Bridge climb is never used... at least not officially ... can't remember ever hearing any other climb other than Canarsie and Breezy Point. Listen in on Clearance Delivery frequency and you hear them giving the actual climb procedure to the pilots aside from the Tower during transition to departure freq and/or at takeoff clearance

[PhilDernerJr]

If you're referring to the main initial turn off of the runway, this may be because yesterday (the 30th) there were 1hr+ taxi times out of JFK, so they have the planes make tighter and wider turns to the departure aircraft are not right behind each other in the air and they can decrease separation.

If you're talking about how they are leaving the local airspace, this is likely due to what is called the WHITE/WAVEY shuffle, which was being used yesterday. It involves two departure fixes, and ATC will alternate departures to those fixes to fit in more planes. This also lets them sneak in LGA and HPN departures as well, getting aircraft out of NY airspace faster.

Dispatchers need to plan departures to include both options for pilots so they have the options. Sometimes two departure runway will be available but planes are piled up on one because the pilots do not have fuel burn info for the other options. Pilots that are given this info by dispatch can then say "Yeah, I can depart on the runway" or "Yeah, I depart to that departure point" because they are equipped. This also comes in handy when there is weather in the area and some departure points are closed (as was the case with some northern fixes yesterday).

If you have questions, please ask. I hope I didn't get too technical...or not technical enough.

[gonzalu]

Hmmm, I think Phil is showing off that he does his job well enough that [his] pilots are [prepared] :tongue: ... I could be wrong of course... LOL

[PhilDernerJr]

Haha. My company makes it policy to include such routes at certain times when necessary. It also helps being close to the airport, being able to communicate by radio as opposed to airlines that are from elsewhere.

[moose135]

It also helps being close to the airport, being able to communicate by radio as opposed to airlines that are from elsewhere.
Or being able to look out the window to check the weather...

[PhilDernerJr]

Ha, I actually don't have that option. I wish I had a view!

[hiss srq]

You can always call my desk, Phil. I'll tell you what it looks like. :wink::tongue:

[PhilDernerJr]

I've got enough radars, satellite and textual resources to have a pretty good idea. But any excuse to call hissy bear. ;)

[hiss srq]

OOOh! I love when you get textual with me in public.

[moose135]

Just remember, don't ever ask for a PIREP, you know how we can be...
:wink:

http://www.chickenwingscomics.com/comics/2012-06-14-cw0152.jpg

[PhilDernerJr]

Ha. Yes, I am familiar with the cute answers. ;)

[Vinny Ohare]

This is what I am talking about. Just a quick thing I put together. Sometimes the plane heads more towards right over the control tower.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OeLY9ZIlTPA/UGpligm-t5I/AAAAAAAAE6I/zScGSLFEjE8/s719/Screen+Shot+2012-10-01+at+11.47.41+PM.png

[PhilDernerJr]

I only see one path so I don't know what you're comparing it to, but it all depends on what departure point they are headed towards in that case it seems.

[RED]

Phil, I believe there is a 2 minute rule for back to back departures heading towards the same intersection fix. So instead of wasting valuable time, JFK implements that WAVEY/WHITE shuffle, correct? First time I’ve heard of the shuffle. I learn something new every day!

Vinny, I think aircraft making the tighter turns, that end up having them fly over the airport, might be headed towards the North Gate. This gate consists of the following ‘exit’ fixes: COATE, SAX, NEION, HAAYS, GAYEL, and DEEZZ. All of which are used for flights headed West/North.

Here’s a cool tool that paints a better picture when discussing climbs/gates/runway configs etc.

http://tfmlearning.fly.faa.gov/NY_Airspace/NY_Airspace_Pkg/NY_Airspace.swf

ARR ILS 31R/31L, DEP 31L - Is what I believe you’re describing. Dotted lines for departures and solid for arrivals.

Cheers.

[PhilDernerJr]

The WHITE/WAVEY shuffle is what allows them to utilize two departure runways at once...not for planes departing on the same runway. It does help separation times when the departing aircraft are departing to different departure fixes, but that has nothing to do with the WHITE/WAVEY shuffle. The absolute minimum separation for departures will be 109 seconds. But if three departing aircraft in a row are going to the same fix, then it can add to their separation beyond the 109...could be 3 minutes or more depending on the aircraft type. If those three planes are departing to RBV, DEEEZ and WAVEY, then they can look to keep those separation times lower.

Side note, WHITE is heavily used for HPN departures, so when JFK uses the shuffle, dispatchers should file their HPN departures out on BIGGY.

RED, that's a great link....great visual for all of the fixes. The shuffle would be used for 31L and 22R as departures, for example. The diagram doesn't show the shuffle exactly, because departing aircraft may be filed to any number of fixes.

Hope what I am explaining makes sense!

[Vinny Ohare]

Thanks Phil

Kind of funny that I haven't seen the pattern I was seeing since I posted here. Hmmm

Thanks for your detailed explanation, much appreciated.

[Speedbird1]

I bought aeronautical charts but can't read them as I've had no training but I often see 31L departures from where I live in Sheepshead Bay. When I see aircraft passing over my building, I am sure they are RBV departures heading to the west. I realize other departures as well but mostly RBV. They proceed climbing towards Sandy Hook.The aircraft that make a sharp turn east over Jamaica Bay are heading for Europe or Asia. This is a bit simplistic but it serves my purposes. As a point of reference, I often saw 3 or 4 Concordes depart 31L in the 80's and 90's. Only once did a Concorde pass over my building, it was heading to MEX.

[PhilDernerJr]

Some of those "east" departures that you see which are European flights, can also be Caribbean or Florida if weather in the DC area is bad and we need to route planes out over the ocean to go south. These are known as "AZEZU" routes...which is a point that is a bit out there off Long Island. Unfortunately adds a lot of fuel (and cost) to a flight.