Over-use of Rwy 22L at JFK

[Speedbird1]

I've been meaning to post this a long time ago. It seems that the 22 Runway complex has become the primary runways in use at JFK. Even folks living in the arrival path of VOR/DME and ILS 22L have been complaining. Now, I notice for afternoon arrivals, VOR/DME 22L has become the primary arrival runway and VOR 13L has become the secondary arrival runway. In past decades, the reverse was true. Is there a reason for this? Who decides the runways in usage, the TRACON in Garden City or the JFK Control Tower? The wind, unless with strong gusts, seems to have little if any effect anymore on runway selection. The 22's are used with a NW and Easterly wind quite often. I used to see lots of aircraft arrive over the Brooklyn shoreline approaching the CRI VOR but now I only see AAL, DAL, and JBU as well as Asian arrivals (JAL, ANA, CAL and CCA) and TAM. Am I imagining this change of procedure or are there new procedures I am unaware of ?

[Zee71]

Like your self I've noticed that as well. When JFK goes to a split configuration (22L and 13L arrivals, and 13R departures), most of the European and northern traffic tends to use 22L while, arrivals from the west and south tend to use 13L. Occassion I'll see some of the European traffic vectored for 13L, but most of it is JetBlue, American, Delta, and United. Also, during the late afternoon JFK tends to then go 22L arrivals, and 22R and 31L (Kilo-Echo) departures.

[AirtrafficController]

Most likely, aircraft assigned the LENDY6, IGN9, or CAMRN4 arrival into Kennedy will receive the VOR13L approach.
Approach, whether CAMRN or ROBER sectors, can switch these arrivals and vector them to the VOR/DME 22L if there is congestion for aircraft going to 13L.
If weather (including winds) is not a factor, Kennedy will switch to the 22s, departing 31@KE most of the time during the summer afternoon because it achieves an airport departure rate of approximately 54-60 per hour.

[yankees368]

This has been the game for quite some time now. I can't even remember the last time I saw a 31R/L setup. For the past several days, JFK has been on a 22/13 setup non-stop.
Clearly, 22 is being used for a lot more than "last resort" conditions. I personally hate it because I can't see 22 from home!

[hiss srq]

Plainly put, the suiside squeeze gives JFK the best operational performance. Best arrival rate during the in flow where we can run 3 arrival runways (both 22's and 13L) and depart 22R. As the clock wains onward into the departure rush usually the boat will turn and 31L at KE will be added as a departure runway. It's very helpful for keeping taxi times down and preventing JFK GDP's to protect the TATL arrivals.

[megatop412]

Both times I've used Kennedy in the recent past we've both left and arrived via the 22's/4's

[PhilDernerJr]

As said, it's one of the optimal configurations, do I don't understand why anyone is saying "overuse" because I'm sure you'd prefer it if it meant no or fewer delays when flying into JFK.

Also, the people on LI that complain about 22 are the typical NIMBYs who complain about any plane no matter what and aren't the most knowledgeable about aviation, and don't know how good they have it compared to many other areas.

[Speedbird1]

JFK calls this "enhanced departures" since their "rush hour" is between 1640 until about 2000. They use 22R for most departures and 31L for SW departures at that time. Alternately, they can use the 4 Runwsy Complex and still depart if the wind is northerly. What I don't understand is why JFK uses 22L in the
Middle of the night although the 13s/ 31s are open and the winds are calm or light. I still haven't received a response of exactly who selects the runways in use. Is it the TRACON, a JFK comtroller or
merely computet-chosen? I miss seeing KLM, BAW, etc. In the summer evenings at the beach.

[PhilDernerJr]

Here are some stats...

The 13L/22L configuration has the best arrival rate, allowing 54-60 planes to land in an hour. If traffic loads or weather are making the airspace cramped, and winds/weather allow (VFR conditions only), this config helps get the planes on the ground fastest.

Landing 31L/R offers the same arrival rate, but is less preferred than 13L/22L because 31L/R only allows 20-22 planes to depart per hour, whereas 13L/22L can allow 30-32 per hour.

I'm not sure why people are debating that for some reason as though the airport is doing something wrong when choosing that config. I hope this helps you understand why the usage is what it is.

[megatop412]

As said, it's one of the optimal configurations, do I don't understand why anyone is saying "overuse" because I'm sure you'd prefer it if it meant no or fewer delays when flying into JFK.

Also, the people on LI that complain about 22 are the typical NIMBYs who complain about any plane no matter what and aren't the most knowledgeable about aviation, and don't know how good they have it compared to many other areas.

I still shudder thinking about the quote from that one resident in the article that was posted last year: "when a plane flies over my scared children run into the bedroom crying 'mommy what's that noise'" The nitwit can't even explain to their kids what a plane is or that they'd need to use one to get to Disneyland??? What has this world become

Hell I'll sit in her backyard in a lounge chair with a 6 pack and a bag of Bugles. I'm cool as long as they don't release the lavs over me

[yankees368]

The term over-use comes from the fact that the port authority and FAA have said numerous times that 22 is the runway of last resort, for use in poor weather. So, either they lied and that isn't true at all, or we are constantly in a hurricane.
We all know that they use 22 for the highest efficiency, but they are clearly lying about why.
I want my 31s back!

[Gerard]

LENDY6, IGN9, or CAMRN4 VOR13L CAMRN or ROBER VOR/DME 22L 31@KE

OMG WTF? LMAO TTYL :tongue::confused::biggrin:

[Gerard]

Hell I'll sit in her backyard in a lounge chair with a 6 pack and a bag of Bugles. I'm cool as long as they don't release the lavs over me

Love when the 22s come over my house!! Have my binocs with me!! And always fun when I'm walking on the track at the Middle School and see them coming in
from the East!!!

[PhilDernerJr]

The term over-use comes from the fact that the port authority and FAA have said numerous times that 22 is the runway of last resort, for use in poor weather. So, either they lied and that isn't true at all, or we are constantly in a hurricane.
We all know that they use 22 for the highest efficiency, but they are clearly lying about why.
I want my 31s back!

I'm confused. When/where did the FAA say the 22L was a last resort?

The actual last resort is ILS13L.

[yankees368]

All the articles I've ever read about the situation claim that the 22 configuration is "last resort."

"An agreement that dates to 2000 details a noise-abatement plan between a community group and the FAA and the Port Authority, which operates Kennedy Airport. Under the plan, Runway 22L should be used only as a last resort during overnight hours."

Ok, so they refer to it as last resort during overnight hours. I was a little off.

[PhilDernerJr]

"Overnight" is the operable word there. You've been complaining and tweeting when they use them for afternoon flights. During the day, it is much preferred.

[eric8669]

All the articles I've ever read about the situation claim that the 22 configuration is "last resort."

"An agreement that dates to 2000 details a noise-abatement plan between a community group and the FAA and the Port Authority, which operates Kennedy Airport. Under the plan, Runway 22L should be used only as a last resort during overnight hours."

Ok, so they refer to it as last resort during overnight hours. I was a little off.

A little off?

[Gerard]

Yesterday I was on Rt 135 SB and the first round of TStorms was moving out to the East and what do I see but the headlights :smile: of a 22 arrival against the dark clouds!! Looked very cool!!

[JetBlueAirwaysFan]

I remember seeing articles in the past about a change in the flight patterns for NYC Airports. This is probably what they meant. I notice the 22s being used a lot more, but I do still tend to see quite a bit of arrivals on the 31s or departures on the 13s. I live in Oceanside so a 13 departure or a 31 arrival means they fly right over my house. I still see that quite often.

[yankees368]

"Overnight" is the operable word there. You've been complaining and tweeting when they use them for afternoon flights. During the day, it is much preferred.

Oh yea, that's just because I didn't understand the whole 4:30pm switch no matter what configuration. I had no idea using 22s gave that much extra capacity.

[eric8669]

Oh yea, that's just because I didn't understand the whole 4:30pm switch no matter what configuration. I had no idea using 22s gave that much extra capacity.

Well if you think about it if they stay on the 31's they can only land two runways and depart one. When on 22s they can utilize 3 runways. Landing on two(22L/22R) and departing on two(22R/31LKE)

[yankees368]

Yea, it makes sense to me now.

[Speedbird1]

I stand by my statement that the 22's are over-used. I understand the need for the 3 runway usage at 1700 daily to cut-down on departure delays but why use the 22's in the middle-of-the-night if the other runways are open? 22L is called the runway of "Last Resort" simply because of its shorter length. The Bay Runways (31s,13's) were intended for the most usage as they are longer and are adjacent to Jamaica Bay I used to listen to the Controller when Concordes were deparing and they almost always asked to depart from 31L. I do recall a rare departure off of Rwy 4L as well as from Rwy 31R when 31L was closed. Rwy 13R Concorde departures were not too rare however. In previous bdecades, wind direction dictated runway use but nowadays wind is of lttle consideration unless gusting to a large degree.

[PhilDernerJr]

I'm still wondering the source of this "last resort" label for 22L.

To me, that runway is not used enough.

[DHG750R]

Oh yea, that's just because I didn't understand the whole 4:30pm switch no matter what configuration. I had no idea using 22s gave that much extra capacity.

The switch at 4:30 is simple. It's response to traffic demand vs airspace and airfield capacity. As Phil said, not sure where the term last resort is coming from with reference to 22L arrivals

The runway length is perfectly acceptable for practically all types that typically use JFK under most cirumstances. The term overuse is not warranted.