How did it come to this?

[Perriwen]

As some of you know, I spot a lot at KDWH, which has always been one of the warmest and most welcoming places for spotters. Until this week. I go up to spot, and what do I see? Now the grassy observation area is sealed away behind a 10-foot barbed wire fence, and signs everywhere saying 'Warning: pilots and linemen ONLY beyond this point.' I spoke to the woman at the front desk about it, and said they felt the need to put up the fences because the pilots were too nervous with people being able to be so close to the planes (despite years and years without incident.) Now...all that is within view is a teeeny tiny fraction of the ramp and runway.

RIP Hooks as we knew it. :(

[Perriwen]

I'm still fuming over the discovery that my local airport now has gone all fenced in and chases away spotters. Even more so, I'm confused about what made the pilots so 'nervous' considering this place had been like that for decades without issue. Everyone was always so nice there and so open to talking...really helped inspire people to fly. What were they afraid was going to happen?

How did we go from those days of openness and inspiration to 'OMG unlessyouflyorworktheredon'tcometotheairportdon'tc omenearaplaneDON'TEVENLOOKATTHEPLANES!!!!!' At a small GA airport, of all things, too.

[moose135]

For the past decade, the government has worked to instill fear in the general public, under the guise of "security" and the "war on terrorism". You can't "fight" terrorism - you can only hope to change the conditions that cause people to use "terrorist" tactics to achieve their goals. All we have now is "security theater" and the continued erosion of our liberties.

"If you see something, say something."

[Perriwen]

For the past decade, the government has worked to instill fear in the general public, under the guise of "security" and the "war on terrorism". You can't "fight" terrorism - you can only hope to change the conditions that cause people to use "terrorist" tactics to achieve their goals. All we have now is "security theater" and the continued erosion of our liberties.

"If you see something, say something."

What amazes me, you can still walk up to a parked freight train or walk through a dock full of people's boats, but, somehow, that's okay but coming close to a Cessna or a Learjet is NONO!!!!

If someone could 'steal a Cessna' and do something, couldn't they steal a speedboat, or sneak into the cab of a parked train and get it moving?

[nssd70]

Railfanning isn't as easy in some places either.

Doug

[Perriwen]

Railfanning isn't as easy in some places either.

Doug

Are you serious? o.O What do they do, gawk at every mile of track?

[nssd70]

Tehachapi Loop in California used to be a great place to railfan,but now thet are putting up fences and gates. Several railfans in the Chicago have had numerous run ins with police and employees who have told them that taking photos of trains is illegal since 9/11. Some railfans including a editor of a railroad magazine have been arrested. I've been railfaning for aver 20 years and it's not the same as it was before 9/11. I have had police stop and tell me I couldn't take photos when I was clearly on a public sidewalk.

Doug

[moose135]

A few years back, the MTA here in New York (they run the subways, LIRR, and other facilities in the metro area) proposed a rule that would ban photography in the NYC subway system. The rule was never enacted - the NY chapter of the ACLU fought it, and the MTA decided to drop the proposal. Even though there was no rule, the police tried to enforce a photography ban - even after a memo to officers went out explaining the legality of photography on the subway. Despite all that, photographers are still improperly arrested for photography in the subway system. From a lawyer I heard from, if that happens to you, the city will generally settle your wrongful arrest claim for about $30,000.

[Perriwen]

You know, I wonder, if we ever DO reach the day of flying cars what might happen with the security then. Will they ease restrictions on planes since they'll more or less become buses or trucks, or....will we be forbidden from taking pictures anywhere outdoors ever?

[PhilDernerJr]

I know it's upsetting. Don't let it affect your morale or enthusiasm for the hobby though!

The restrictions always make me wonder if it has the opposite effect. Does keeping the public away add a stigma that makes people MORE worried about travel?

[megatop412]

As I stated in the thread regarding Iran,

"how long until it's "if you see people taking pictures, call the police!" hell, what am I saying we're already halfway there"

and

"eventually, it WILL come to the passage of actual laws prohibiting photography."


Not so paranoid thinking is it

[PhilDernerJr]

I disagree. I think that photography has and if not, is quickly becoming, a form of free speech that people will stand up for. The Subway example shows that. The protests taking place here in NYC and around the world, along with uprisings and such, all REQUIRE photography to push their cause. It's a major part of protest and freedom these days. Any laws that would truly limit photography, I feel, will be met hard from the public as a violation of rights.

There are not many examples of where spotters' ability to spot are truly prohibited...just a few isolated airports. EWR is tough because we just can't find any public property around there (God forbid Newark have a park or something haha).

[Perriwen]

I know it's upsetting. Don't let it affect your morale or enthusiasm for the hobby though!

The restrictions always make me wonder if it has the opposite effect. Does keeping the public away add a stigma that makes people MORE worried about travel?

I know one thing. Seeing a place that was once so open and welcoming surrounded by barbed wire was like...reverse prison.

As far as morale, it does take a hit, though, since now the closest spotting location is nearly 40 miles away.

[PhilDernerJr]

Being a smaller airport, I wonder if you might be able to be-friend the ops folks. Maybe walk in there one day with a random question that would be helpful to you, and then the next day some by with a box or two of doughnuts to thank them. Visit here and there (small box of munchkins as a token gift during such) and before you know you'll be airside!

[PhilDernerJr]

And FYI, I merged the two threads regarding this.

[megatop412]

I think that photography has and if not, is quickly becoming, a form of free speech that people will stand up for. The Subway example shows that. The protests taking place here in NYC and around the world, along with uprisings and such, all REQUIRE photography to push their cause. It's a major part of protest and freedom these days. Any laws that would truly limit photography, I feel, will be met hard from the public as a violation of rights.

Then I think everyone here and in other groups needs to do some advance thinking about whether they are willing to get arrested by agents of government that feel their orders should supercede what the laws allow.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20120326_ap_phillycollegestudentchargedaftertaking photos.html

[jerslice]

I consider myself lucky enough to live in a place where spotting is generally well tolerated (SEA, RNT, BFI), and in some cases celebrated (PAE). Security and ops at all the Seattle area fields generally wave at you. The idea of an airport watch (a movement I have mixed feelings about: ie the need to have a background check in order to legally do something I was already able to do legally anyways pitted against the reality that these groups are enabling spotting at places notorious for harassment like ORD, for example) is something we don’t even need here thankfully.


Then I think everyone here and in other groups needs to do some advance thinking about whether they are willing to get arrested by agents of government that feel their orders should supercede what the laws allow.

Addressing the main topic here, I’d add that while I find actual laws banning photography to be unlikely in the near future, I think the “see something, say something” campaign along with mostly negative stories about suspicious photographers doing this or that popping up from time to time in the media has really helped solidify a societal suspicion of photographers in the US. This is especially true of those who do street photography and—as we are all too familiar with—those who enjoy photographing railways, subways, and aviation. The subway example underscores the point megatop made: you might win in the long run but you’ll often pay a price to get there. And even still, there’s no guarantee you’ll win. The reality that such examples continue to pop up and that we are not having any sort of national discussion on the legality of everyday photography sort of tells me that while we’re not about to make photography illegal, we’re certainly not on the precipice of it falling under freedom of speech either. As long as we continue to maintain security theater and propagate the idea that anyone doing anything you don’t understand or like or find suspicious for whatever reason is a potential terrorism or criminal suspect there will always be citizens convinced you’re plotting a plan, rent-a-cops overstepping their authority, and officers who will insist that plane spotting, street photography, railfaning, and subway pics are illegal because of 9/11 or because of X law that doesn’t really exist or because their supervisor told them to.



I think that photography has and if not, is quickly becoming, a form of free speech that people will stand up for. The Subway example shows that. The protests taking place here in NYC and around the world, along with uprisings and such, all REQUIRE photography to push their cause. It's a major part of protest and freedom these days. Any laws that would truly limit photography, I feel, will be met hard from the public as a violation of rights.

Related, I’m thrilled to see the growth of cell phone cameras and affordable photography equipment enabling and furthering movements from Occupy Wall St to the Middle East. That being said, I don’t think the Syrians are currently too happy about cell phone pictures being leaked and neither were the Iranians a few years back. I can’t imagine leaders in Yemen or Bahrain have been too pleased with the proliferation of digital photography either. The US generally tolerates it, but seemingly only when it seems to be something important and not particularly related to security. Occupy Wall St movements are not really perceived by critics as a security threat so much as they are perceived as a nuisance. If Occupy decided to start occupying TSA checkpoints and were photographing people as they went through the process I’d bet things would change awfully fast for them. But the powers that be don’t understand why we take pictures of airplanes, and many don’t particularly care either. A lone photographer getting arrested for taking photos at the local airport has not inspired legislators to decry the arrest on the floor of the Capitol in DC. Just because photography is easier and more accessible than ever before (and even integral to movements involving rights and freedom) doesn’t mean it is becoming more acceptable by the powers that be.

Also, RE the airfield originally in question, there is a solution: buy a taller ladder J BFI has gradually been expanding their fence from 7ft to 10ft and YVR very very sadly did the same thing – effectively killing spots at BFI and altogether making spotting at YVR darn near impossible. We’ve responded by buying six and eight foot ladders…though I’m not one of them who’ve been able to (97 Oldsmobile just can’t handle it). More realistically Phil’s idea is a good one as is dropping by and having an honest conversation with the head of operation or someone from communications. We’ve done it here at BFI a few times, and while it hasn’t gotten us anywhere yet at least we’ve tried and they know we’re here.

[Perriwen]

Being a smaller airport, I wonder if you might be able to be-friend the ops folks. Maybe walk in there one day with a random question that would be helpful to you, and then the next day some by with a box or two of doughnuts to thank them. Visit here and there (small box of munchkins as a token gift during such) and before you know you'll be airside!

I've actually already been friends with several of the ops people there, and spoke to them when I last visited. They were apologetic but explained with the new general manager, spotting is pretty much no way no how. Believe me, I had incredible access prior. All the lineworkers knew me by name, except the odd new one here and there.


Also, RE the airfield originally in question, there is a solution: buy a taller ladder J BFI has gradually been expanding their fence from 7ft to 10ft and YVR very very sadly did the same thing

A ladder wouldn't really help since the area in question doesn't have much a view. From where you're now limited to, you have the main terminal blocking the view of the ramp.

[snydersnapshots]

As some of you know, I spot a lot at KDWH, which has always been one of the warmest and most welcoming places for spotters. Until this week. I go up to spot, and what do I see? Now the grassy observation area is sealed away behind a 10-foot barbed wire fence, and signs everywhere saying 'Warning: pilots and linemen ONLY beyond this point.' I spoke to the woman at the front desk about it, and said they felt the need to put up the fences because the pilots were too nervous with people being able to be so close to the planes (despite years and years without incident.) Now...all that is within view is a teeeny tiny fraction of the ramp and runway.

RIP Hooks as we knew it. :(

I live right down from Hooks but haven't been out there in the last several weeks. Was it just the pilots getting concerned or was there more to it, like the TSA putting restrictions on them?

It's a darn shame. GA in this country is down sharply and fewer people are flying because of the cost. These restrictions don't help. Some of the best memories I have from growing up are running around the airports looking at airplanes and hanging out with pilots. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like my son will be afforded that opportunity.



They were apologetic but explained with the new general manager, spotting is pretty much no way no how.

Ah...therein lies the problem. Any chance of getting a group together and meeting with him (or her)? Maybe a group of regular DWH spotters could get together and work out an equitable solution--maybe a "known spotter" type of thing that will get you in the gate until something better can be worked out.

As I understand it, Hooks is (or was) a privately owned airport that did not accept federal dollars that many of the other similar sized airports take, thus they were able to pretty much run things the way they wanted without federal interference. Has this changed?

[Perriwen]

I live right down from Hooks but haven't been out there in the last several weeks. Was it just the pilots getting concerned or was there more to it, like the TSA putting restrictions on them?

It's a darn shame. GA in this country is down sharply and fewer people are flying because of the cost. These restrictions don't help. Some of the best memories I have from growing up are running around the airports looking at airplanes and hanging out with pilots. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like my son will be afforded that opportunity.



Ah...therein lies the problem. Any chance of getting a group together and meeting with him (or her)? Maybe a group of regular DWH spotters could get together and work out an equitable solution--maybe a "known spotter" type of thing that will get you in the gate until something better can be worked out.

As I understand it, Hooks is (or was) a privately owned airport that did not accept federal dollars that many of the other similar sized airports take, thus they were able to pretty much run things the way they wanted without federal interference. Has this changed?

I'm considering any and all that. But, I was the only 'regular' spotter I saw out there, though I may try and see if Andrew Compello is interested in trying anything as well. All I really know is the new GM put this in place and the report was pilots were 'nervous' without the fences. I also have heard 2920 could be a possible place to watch arrivals, but I never tried that before.

[Gerard]

I disagree. I think that photography has and if not, is quickly becoming, a form of free speech that people will stand up for. The Subway example shows that. The protests taking place here in NYC and around the world, along with uprisings and such, all REQUIRE photography to push their cause. It's a major part of protest and freedom these days. Any laws that would truly limit photography, I feel, will be met hard from the public as a violation of rights.

Ahhh once again a voice of reason and sensibilty. :smile: