Plane Spotters in Boston and NY for Radio Report about Sept 11th

[Phillip Martin]

Dear NYC Aviation Forum members,

I am a journalist at WGBH in Boston working on a story about 9-11 and I am looking for plane spotters in Boston and New York who witnessed American Flight 11 and United Flight 175 take off from Logan here in Boston OR who saw the planes flying low over Manhattan on September 11th heading toward the Twin Towers. What you witnessed as "plane spotters" is key to this report. A polling question relevant to this thread is: Has Plane Spotting Become More Difficult since 9/11? I thank you in advance. I can be reached at [email protected].

Phillip Martin
Senior Reporter
WGBH Radio Boston
New England's NPR News and Culture Station
http://www.wgbh.org/
617-300-2348 w.
617-821-6467 c.

[PhilDernerJr]

Hi Phillip, welcome!

As I said in my email to you, I unfortunately don't believe any spotters were out and about on 9/11 to document anything, and I'd venture that if someone did come forward, I'd question its validity.

September 11, 2011 was a Tuesday, which means that most enthusiasts are at work and attendance is low. Also, two of the 9/11 flights were out of Newark, which is not spotter friendly at all, and Boston isn't as frequently attended by enthusiasts that early in the morning, not to mention that United and American 757s and 767s are fairly unremarkable, meaning that many enthusiasts with a camera may skip them and let them pass without documenting it.

Planespotting has actually become MUCH more popular after 9/11. The hobby has grown in strength as time continued steadily. There was a period of time where it was somewhat challenging to spot. But as time passed, police in the areas that experienced frequent planespotting became more familiar with the hobby and police encounters became much more smooth and mutually beneficial in comfort.

[lijk604]

Planespotting has actually become MUCH more popular after 9/11. The hobby has grown in strength as time continued steadily. There was a period of time where it was somewhat challenging to spot. But as time passed, police in the areas that experienced frequent planespotting became more familiar with the hobby and police encounters became much more smooth and mutually beneficial in comfort.

Phil,
While I agree that spotting has become more popular, not every airport is thrilled about the hobby. All I have to do is mention Islip, and you know what I mean. They had an unofficial spotting area on Smithtown Avenue before 9-11, but ever since it has been closed off, and anyone who is even near the airport with a camera is harassed to the point of being taken in for questioning, or, in my case, have had homeland security stop by the house for a chat. I only wish they would be as educated as those at JFK, LGA or even Republic.

[Gerard]

Phil,
While I agree that spotting has become more popular, not every airport is thrilled about the hobby. All I have to do is mention Islip, and you know what I mean. They had an unofficial spotting area on Smithtown Avenue before 9-11, but ever since it has been closed off, and anyone who is even near the airport with a camera is harassed to the point of being taken in for questioning, or, in my case, have had homeland security stop by the house for a chat. I only wish they would be as educated as those at JFK, LGA or even Republic.

Whats the story with Islip? Why are they such a pain in the keister as opposed to other airports around here?
Sorry to go off track here.

[Cary]

My local airport, TTN, used to be worry-free when it came to spotting pre-9/11. I could sit at the picnic benches next to the terminal for hours, and no one would raise an eyebrow. After 9/11, I only stop by there for special visitors, I only leave my car for that one visitor (I'm outside my car for 3 minutes tops), and I check in with the airport manager and/or sheriff's office before spotting. Even after doing all that, I've been questioned by officers who aren't aware of my presence. The officers at TTN are usually very polite/professional, but I tend to hear "you know...9/11" a lot. The Elizabeth PD officer who yelled at me to leave a public area near Newark "Liberty" Int'l Airport, on the other hand...

[Derf]

I watched the second plane hit the towers from the 14th floor in Midtown Manhattan, I thought it was a 737 but I was quite a ways away. I saw the mushroom cloud that has been replayed over and over on TV. Aviation spotting was easy and fun. I remember sitting under the approach at Rockaway. I called it the "Waynes World" approach. If I tried that now, I would almost certainly be arrested. Airplane spotting was fun and now it became where we need be prepared for "WHEN" we get stopped. We have the scenario playing over an over in our heads about what we will say when we get stopped.. WHEN WE GET STOPPED. It Never was like that and I will Never forget 9/11 or how everyone will never let me forget 9/11 when I spot aviation. My $.02

[Mateo]

Quick point for Phil - 2 of the flights were ex-BOS, 1 was from IAD, and UA93 was from EWR.

I get the impression that places that were friendly remained friendly, while places that were neutral to poor became even worse, using 9/11 as an excuse. By now, I think most of us have been stopped and questioned more times than we can count, and there are good police forces and bad ones, and within each force, good officers and bad officers. I've even been part of a questioning where one agency showed up and told another agency to beat it! As much as it is a cliche, every time an LEO invokes "9/11" it's letting the terrorists win. I find the hobby relaxing - it's one of the reasons I go out to an airport when time permits, but there are some places where it's so stressful (one starts with a T and rhymes with Shmeterboro) since I'm constantly looking over my shoulder, even though I'm doing nothing wrong, that it becomes far more business than pleasure, and what's the fun in that?

[727C47]

i was walking through terminal C at EWR,looked up just after the North Tower got hit,saw the smoke rolling out and thought, first ,surreally, there must be a smokestack blocking my view of the trade center,then,oh no,must be a kitchen fire at Windows on the World,thats it a kitchen fire, my wife called me and set me straight,by the time I got to Broad St station at Newark both towers were fully ablaze all transit service to NYC had been cut off and the world as we had known it was irrevocably changed.

[jerslice]

I second Phil, it was highly unlikely anyone was spotting at BOS that day and if they were neither of the planes would have attracted much of a second look. Massport was never particularly spotter friendly even before 9/11, and, if you ask me, 9/11 gave them cover to be less friendly to spotters than they already were.

Spotting has become both more popular and more restricted at the same time since then. More popular because it's become more accessible...more restricted because of security theater.

[Phillip Martin]

I watched the second plane hit the towers from the 14th floor in Midtown Manhattan, I thought it was a 737 but I was quite a ways away. I saw the mushroom cloud that has been replayed over and over on TV. Aviation spotting was easy and fun. I remember sitting under the approach at Rockaway. I called it the "Waynes World" approach. If I tried that now, I would almost certainly be arrested. Airplane spotting was fun and now it became where we need be prepared for "WHEN" we get stopped. We have the scenario playing over an over in our heads about what we will say when we get stopped.. WHEN WE GET STOPPED. It Never was like that and I will Never forget 9/11 or how everyone will never let me forget 9/11 when I spot aviation. My $.02

We should talk. As I've mentioned in this thread, the story of plane spotting and security is a good, unexplored angle in itself. I would like to follow up with some questions off-line.

[Phillip Martin]

So where do you go at Islip to plane spot if the main perch has been scrubbed

[lijk604]

So where do you go at Islip to plane spot if the main perch has been scrubbed
Thats the point, you don't. The parking area that was on Smithtown Ave now had it's curb raised so you cannot pull off the road to sit by the fence. Until the airport construction started a few months ago, they also had a cement barrier their to ensure people would hop the curb anyway.

The only other areas you could possibly see the airport was a bank parking lot at the corner of Vets & Lakeland Ave. However they posted no loitering signs there, bank business only. The bank has since closed, and the parking lot has do not cross tape and barriers there now so people do not just sit there and god forbid, watch the airplanes.

It's really sad, it's not a major airport, in fact there are about 3-4 flight schools on the field and the NY Army Guard is based there with a bunch of HH-60's so there is always something to watch there, yet, you can't sit anywhere without having SCPD come by and tell you to leave. It's a sad state of paranoia.

[Phillip Martin]

I second Phil, it was highly unlikely anyone was spotting at BOS that day and if they were neither of the planes would have attracted much of a second look. Massport was never particularly spotter friendly even before 9/11, and, if you ask me, 9/11 gave them cover to be less friendly to spotters than they already were.

Spotting has become both more popular and more restricted at the same time since then. More popular because it's become more accessible...more restricted because of security theater.

But my question is, why would it grow in popularity if it is so severely restricted? I'm heading out to Logan today to ask folks at Massport this very question, but was wondering if there is any data to show the ebbs and flows of plane spotting since 9/11. My informal poll here suggest that it is definitely more restricted. And examples like that at Islip would seem to dampen the enthusiasm for spotting.

[Derf]

It seems to grow because people are able to see high quality images of airliners online and realize that it is not that expensive to go at take high quality aviation images as the equipment is no longer expensive. People would sit by the airport and document tail numbers of aircraft coming and going, now it is more 300mm zoom lens's that is the normal. The ability for people to go to airliners.net and jetphotos.net and NYCAviation and see what special aircraft that have come recently keeps enthusiasts looking constantly where as back in the year 1990 it would have been purchasing once a month an airliners magazine with pro's taking pictures. There are more cameras everywhere, Nascar Races are no different as photographers now have 10 times the zoom lens's at a Nascar race then back in 1990.

Times changed for photography

[megatop412]

I was drinking my coffee watching CNN when they cut in about a "fire" at WTC. Then it became "a plane crashed into WTC". Then it was "an airliner". Then they rolled the first footage, at about 10 minutes to 9. As soon as I saw the hole in the side of 1 World Trade I knew it was intentional. No way would an airline pilot hit it with almost no bank angle on a morning with such great VFR conditions. I told my wife the same thing, she went "holy cow that would be crazy if true" and she left for work.

Two minutes later I saw what I thought was a 737 at a high bank angle come in from the right and disappear behind the buildings a split second before the fireball came out the other side. They were broadcasting from the top of the Rock so it was looking directly south, same view as most TV watchers got. It flipped me out so bad that I didn't even realize what was happening; I thought I was watching a replay of the first plane until the CNN guy said "There goes another one. Oh, no..." And the rest as they say is history.

If anything, the more restrictive atmosphere has strengthened our resolve to keep doing it, because we know we are right that our love is a harmless hobby that actually increases airport security, and that we have every right to pursue it, regardless of what the Elizabeth PD or Islip PD thinks. I just learned of a "spotter's permit" ID type of thing that is now in place over by Chicago O'Hare, which points to the increase in interest people seem to have. The internet photo sites grow daily in content and visitors. When I started doing this with film in the 90's, I knew no one, and I was always in the Costco parking lot by myself. Now, we meet up regularly.

Yes in some ways things have gotten more difficult, but I had run-ins with the police even before 9/11. As an interesting aside, last weekend I was hanging out with a buddy from high school and his girlfriend. Knowing he was a camera buff himself, I pulled out my new lens I got to spot with, the Sigma 150-500mm. As soon as she saw it, his girlfriend said "That's a lens? That thing looks like a bazooka! How does that not look suspicious?"

My ultimate goal, before I die, is to help create enough awareness of what we do so that when people like her call the police after seeing us, the police will say "Those are aircraft spotters, and they're watching out for the airport and the planes."

[727C47]

+1,LOVE THE AVATAR !!! used to spot from the rollercoaster !!!

[jerslice]

But my question is, why would it grow in popularity if it is so severely restricted?

As others have pointed out, photography is just far more accessible than it used to be. You can spend $1000 and pick up a package that is decent enough to produce reasonable quality photos – without having to learn how the camera actually works. Heck, even cell phone cameras can get reasonable, online quality images that compete with some of the point and shoots (think Nikon Coolpix or similar type cameras). The lower end of cameras available on the market is catching up to the higher end faster than the higher end is advancing upward. And the quality possible for money spent continues to, on average, go down…which makes sense as manufactures try to best one another offering better and better products for less & less.

On the other end, it has become harder to spot than it used to be. I remember being able to go to Worcester Airport pre-9/11 and get on the other side of security to take pictures of the commuter planes that (used to) serve the field. I think it’s obvious that I couldn’t do that in my wildest dreams now. I remember when I could sit on top of terminal B parking lot in Boston and watch planes for hours. If Massport or the tower catch sight of you now?; good luck making it past ten minutes. And if you don’t leave, the Staties will be happy to help you along…
(to be fair to Massport, you can call Phil Orlandella (communications guy at the field) in advance and usually get permission to be up there now – so I give them credit there at least, but that only extends to airport itself).


As others have said, and this is true no matter where you are, but especially on the east coast, you’re prepared for not if you’ll be questioned but when. People see a photographer on the side of the road pointing it at an aircraft and their first thought 15 years ago would’ve been “odd, but whatever”. Now they see that same person and think anything from “He’s a terrorist plotting his next attack” to “that looks like rifle or a grenade launcher!” and call the police. I know a guy in Seattle who was using a larger zoom lens on the side of the road in Seattle in a place known for spotters, and someone called him in the cops saying he was hiding in the bushes with a rifle shooting at planes.

I do think the severity of it differs widely by region though and also by individual fields. Security issues aren’t half the problem they are on the east coast out here on the west. I have only been questioned once or twice since moving to Seattle three years ago…as opposed to what, dozens of times in Boston and elsewhere? Most of the time law enforcement waves to us as they drive by here (except for that one guy with the “rifle” in the bushes). I think the west coast is more accepting overall, but also, 9/11 didn’t happen out here. Most people were asleep when it unfolded and didn’t see it live on TV or unfold in front of their eyes. Unlike most of us in NYC or in the northeast in general, most don’t know anyone who was in the towers or on a plane: I don’t think it hit home out here in the same way. And I do think it makes a difference how spotting is received around here.

Fears of being questioned and hassled by law enforcement are a product of post-9/11 security. Fears of being called in to the police by fellow citizens who don’t know any better are by and large a post-9/11 thing. Fears of having your memory card wiped out or film confiscated, your person detained or arrested – almost entirely 9/11.

So where does that leave the new throngs of spotters?...to crowd the handful of places that do understand, that do bend, that do make exceptions.

[megatop412]

+1,LOVE THE AVATAR !!! used to spot from the rollercoaster !!!


Ah, you remember the mighty Atom Smasher

I loved Rockaway Playland so much I named my recording studio after it

[PhilDernerJr]

Planespotting has grown so much since 9/11 because the hobby has been growing on the internet. More sites, resources, technology, and most importantly, the explosion (pardon the pun) of high quality digital photography equipment accessible to the public as a somewhat reasonable cost.

[steve1840]

Planespotting has grown so much since 9/11 because the hobby has been growing on the internet. More sites, resources, technology, and most importantly, the explosion (pardon the pun) of high quality digital photography equipment accessible to the public as a somewhat reasonable cost.

I can attest to what Phil said, since afterall, I hadn't been very familiar with this hobby until I stumbled across the great website last fall looking for photography tips. After seeing this, I combined my love for photography, with my long lost love for aviation.

[727C47]

Ah, you remember the mighty Atom Smasher

I loved Rockaway Playland so much I named my recording studio after it
that was a great coaster ,liked it better than the Cyclone !!!

[AA757]

I have been spotting at Logan since 2008 and have never had any run ins with the police...Everywhere I go eveyone is friendly and interested in my hobby and ask friendly questions....

Phillip Martin I sent you a private message in your in box on this site..


Rich Barnett