As feared..We've reached bulldashery levels with the TSA!

[T-Bird76]

As I feared the TSA has reached bulldashery levels that can only be described in the immortal words of Nick V as "EPIC" LEVELS!!!! Well this is what happens when you employ front line workers that couldn't get jobs at a decent company and when you have leadership with questionable pasts that probably would fail a background check... Sadly though we are stuck with them...

http://overheadbin.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/06/26/6951679-tsa-asks-95-year-old-woman-to-remove-diaper-for-pat-down

[NIKV69]

That is pretty much epic fail. My God.

[gonzalu]

What if the "pad" was full of explosives? huh? Smart guys? huh?

LOL... I guarantee you, once that Grandma gets through security, the next terrorist from wherever terrorists come from will be dressed like a 95 year old woman. :tongue:

[T-Bird76]

What if the "pad" was full of explosives? huh? Smart guys? huh?

LOL... I guarantee you, once that Grandma gets through security, the next terrorist from wherever terrorists come from will be dressed like a 95 year old woman. :tongue:

The procedure is fundamentally flawed and demeaning to the public. This goes beyond reasonable search procedures Manny as the "standard procedure" the TSA is standing behind. You have a 95 year old woman, wheelchair bound, who's on her last days, some respect and humility is deserved. We are a civil society but we've let this organization run wild coming up with procedures that utterly demean the very citizens its tasked to protect...yet time and time again they've failed test upon test. If this was a privately held company they would be out of business and rightly so.

[flyboy 28]

I've had to fly out of VPS recently, and I'm pretty sure it was the same morons who held on to my laptop for an hour before giving it back to me, citing "suspicious substances" on the keyboard. :confused:

[emshighway]

The TSA today released a statement that absolved its staff of any wrongdoing:

"While every person and item must be screened before entering the secure
boarding area, TSA works with passengers to resolve security alarms in a
respectful and sensitive manner. We have reviewed the circumstances involving
this screening and determined that our officers acted professionally, according
to proper procedure and did not require this passenger to remove an adult
diaper," TSA spokesman James Fotenos said.


It is unfortunate the daughter didn't pack extra depends and was willing to let her mother sit in her own waste for the entire trip.

If there was a suspect item in the depends do you honestly think the daughter would have been allowed bring the mother to the bathroom? There has been incidents overseas where children and elderly are used to smuggle explosives.

[PhilDernerJr]

To me, in being honest, does it sound that this woman was very embarrassed, understandably, for having to go through that? Yeah, I don't think anyone would debate that. But does anyone actually stop to consider what emshighway says, that people want security but aren't willing to go through annoying stuff like that? Yeah, people smuggle all kinds of stuff around on those that you wouldn't suspect. That's the whole effin point. It's not just terror, either.

It's like "I want the TSA to do their jobs thoroughly but you're expected to be psychic in knowing who is good and bad."

Blame the environment that we live in. I don't blame the TSA.

[mirrodie]

I've had to fly out of VPS recently, and I'm pretty sure it was the same morons who held on to my laptop for an hour before giving it back to me, citing "suspicious substances" on the keyboard. :confused:

Ok, since no one else has:

You might want to lay off certain websites for a while ;) j/k

Demeaning yes. It's demeaning until she granny McVeigh does plant a bomb up her arse.

Better tech is warranted to get past it.

[PhilDernerJr]

Mirrodie hit the nail on the head. This is the nature of the world these days. If you don't like, don't fly. Sucks but that's the reality.

[T-Bird76]

To me, in being honest, does it sound that this woman was very embarrassed, understandably, for having to go through that? Yeah, I don't think anyone would debate that. But does anyone actually stop to consider what emshighway says, that people want security but aren't willing to go through annoying stuff like that? Yeah, people smuggle all kinds of stuff around on those that you wouldn't suspect. That's the whole effin point. It's not just terror, either.

It's like "I want the TSA to do their jobs thoroughly but you're expected to be psychic in knowing who is good and bad."

Blame the environment that we live in. I don't blame the TSA.

That's ashame Phil that you don't hold a gov't organization accountable for treating travelers with respect, hiring competent people with clean backgrounds..... This organization has very well documented failures time and time again. Simply because its "proper procedure" doesn't mean its the right procedure... Thinking like that is why business's fail...oh wait the TSA is immune to logical thinking.

[PhilDernerJr]

You're talking about several issues at once. With regard to this woman...what were they SUPPOSED to do? I'd love to hear suggestions.

[PhilDernerJr]

Side note: We should keep this all to one thread instead of starting several new ones each week.

[T-Bird76]

Ok, since no one else has:

You might want to lay off certain websites for a while ;) j/k

Demeaning yes. It's demeaning until she granny McVeigh does plant a bomb up her arse.

Better tech is warranted to get past it.

Ah yes like those puffers that worked so well and the new Xray devices that the TSA proclaims are safe....

[T-Bird76]

Side note: We should keep this all to one thread instead of starting several new ones each week.

Well I can't help it that the TSA screws up on a weekly basis? Blame the TSA for that ;) Oh wait.... :cool:

[flyboy 28]

Ok, since no one else has:

You might want to lay off certain websites for a while ;) j/k

D'oh, you got me there.:tongue:

[T-Bird76]

You're talking about several issues at once. With regard to this woman...what were they SUPPOSED to do? I'd love to hear suggestions.

Not my job to make those suggestion Phil...that's why we have a Gov't who we trust hires competent workers who can make sound judgement calls. I don't ask someone who doesn't work for me how I should run my business as my company didn't hire them to manage my dept's, budget lines, inventory, and other assets. They hired me because of my experience and they trust my judgement. If I made the magnitude of mistakes the TSA did I'd be out of a job. If the TSA has to come to the public for suggestions then we really are screwed. I'm sorry that some get all in a tizzy when a post is made pointing out the TSA's mistakes but a forum like this related to aviation is just such a forum to discuss these events.

[T-Bird76]

Just one more thing about the TSA's "proper procedure". Ponder this? What reaction would you have if that was your grandmother, wife, or child? Some of you I feel may have ended up in jail over the reaction you would have had. So lets call is spade to spade...this organization, its workers, leadership, and procedures are a complete and utter failure to the tenth degree!

[PhilDernerJr]

Not my job to make those suggestion Phil...that's why we have a Gov't who we trust...

The king quote from people who complain. I don't care who gets paid to do what, I feel that people who don't have suggestions on how or think they can do it better shouldn't complain.

I see NO problem with what happened with the old lady.

[wunaladreamin]

Remember the underwear bomber? Yawn bulldashery. Wake me up when we reach hornswagglery. Egadz!

[mirrodie]

tom, Phil has a point. If you are going to complain then have an alternative.

I dont trust the body scanners that are supposedly safe. As safe as Agent Orange and 911 dust. But I think, for instance, thermal imaging, while expensive, has its merits.

As Phil said, as it relates to this case, if this lady was truly Tim McVeighs nana, how would you ensure that she didnt have a pipebomb in her Depends? At least give an alternative.

If you were g-dforbid the employee here, what would you have done?
I think its a fair and valid question to ask someone who is against the current scenario that took place.

Is it in poor taste? Yes. Would it be in poor taste were it not done and she was a terrorist and the plane went down?

[mirrodie]

And not for nothing, but hte daughter not having an extra diaper? WTF? She crapped her diaper before the plane took off. Was she going to sit in it on the entire ride? maybe the TSA did the plane a favor....

[Matt Molnar]

The simple fact is it is still not clear what happened so we shouldn't be making declaratory statements about TSA folks being uneducated or wasting our money.

That said, defending them if they DID do this is unfathomable. There is no legitimate security concern that outweighs the common dignity of anyone, particularly an elderly woman. But it's still not clear who did what.

[Derf]

Matt, Butt out! We do not need that calm cool voice of reason in this thread! You could have at least waited until I finished my popcorn!

Ok, since you ended it, I have to give you points for doing it in an elegant yet forceful way. I could not agree more and very well said...but next time please check to see how much popcorn I have left? Please?

[USAF Pilot 07]

I don't ask someone who doesn't work for me how I should run my business as my company didn't hire them to manage my dept's, budget lines, inventory, and other assets. They hired me because of my experience and they trust my judgement. If I made the magnitude of mistakes the TSA did I'd be out of a job.

True, but you also don't make $15/hour, your position most likely requires more than just a GED or high school diploma and if you don't do your job correctly, thousands of people won't die. Also, you're in more of a managerial position (vs. a laborer), and the company you work most likely encourages you to use discretion and be creative in the decisions you make and in managing the people who work for you because money is your bottom line. Not to mention, you probably aren't bounded by thousands of rules and regulations telling you how to do your job.
I trust myself, and I'd trust someone like you to use discretion and treat each situation differently. But I can't say I'd trust a straight out of high-school, no work experience, no managerial experience and someone who's had limited "corporate" interaction between different organizations to do the same. I'm not trying to knock the TSA; I respect the job they do as it is a tough one, but it is a large government organization that hires all different types of people from all different backgrounds, and needs to ensure uniformity at some level.

Discretion is important, but when it comes to the public's safety certain guidelines and rules have to be followed, especially if failure to follow those rules could lead to death. And, in an organization as large as the TSA, who employs tens of thousands of people and is in thousands of airports across the US, it is important to have uniformity and "black and white" guidelines across the board. If you allow individual employees, who have very limited training and who do not require extensive schooling to use their own discretion, you will end up with a broken, haphazard system.

The TSA is in a tough, "damned if you do, damned if you don't" spot, and always will be. Hindsight is 20/20; obviously this woman wasn't a terrorist - but what if one day something goes down where terrorists used a situation like this to get explosive materials past airport security? The headlines would be all over the TSA for failing to do their job, and if it was found out the agent who allowed that person to proceed through security did so because individually they did not see a threat and used their own personal discretion, there would be a massive uproar.

Flying commercially is not a right. If you want to avoid situations like these, then be prepared to pay for it in time and money. Set up a system like El Al uses. But, then don't complain when you have to show up 4+ hours prior to your flight, when you have to wait in ridiculously long lines, answer a long list of personal questions, and when your ticket price increases because in order to have people who are able to use "discretion" working security, you'll have to employ highly trained, behavioral analysts who demand high salaries.

Until then, we'll have to live with stories like these which most likely represent less than 0.1% of the flying population's experiences with the TSA... It doesn't mean it's right, but with an organization as large as the TSA, no one will ever get things 100% right, 100% of the time, and to be quite honest I'd rather be safe than sorry.....

[T-Bird76]

The king quote from people who complain. I don't care who gets paid to do what, I feel that people who don't have suggestions on how or think they can do it better shouldn't complain.

I see NO problem with what happened with the old lady.

Phil I have to wonder what your reaction would be if that was one of your relatives....I think I know what your reaction would be... I don't buy your statement that you don't have a problem..you would if it was one of your relatives.

Groping people, fondling babies, humiliating the elderly, failing time and time again at security tests, and lying about new scanning procedures is not acceptable and if you think it is then you're wrong.

[PhilDernerJr]

I don't know what you're referring to when it comes to groping people and fondling babies, but for this case, if it happened to a relative, I don't feel that I'd flip out, from what I know of the situation. Maybe my opinion would change if it did happen to a relative but I, considering what we know and don't know, don't know it's that big of a deal....it's the price we have to pay for security.

[FlyFotos]

....it's the price we have to pay for security.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. It's the price we have to pay for political correctness, or at the most the Illusion of security.

If there really was a demand for real security, the TSA would run the airports like the Israelis.. Look funny, we're going to take you into a little room and ask your questions for hours, meet certain conditions, same little room.

I'm sorry, but the TSA is a real sore subject for me. I stand (as a professional pilot) and get poked, prodded and scrutinized like a convicted criminal, all the while watching 12.00 an hour ramp agents that barely (if at all) speak english simply walk right past security.

But because people are afraid of "profiling" I have to subject myself to dangerous radiation, humiliating pat downs, and be subject to the approval of a wanna be cop with a fresh GED?

And for the record, half of my household income comes from the TSA.

[T-Bird76]

I don't know what you're referring to when it comes to groping people and fondling babies, but for this case, if it happened to a relative, I don't feel that I'd flip out, from what I know of the situation. Maybe my opinion would change if it did happen to a relative but I, considering what we know and don't know, don't know it's that big of a deal....it's the price we have to pay for security.

Phil paying a high price for security is fine, but not for incompetence, and failure.

[ch2tdriver]

[Quote "Lauren Gaches, a spokesperson for the Transportation Security Administration, would not comment on the incident beyond the statement released Monday morning.

"While every person and item must be screened before entering the secure boarding area, TSA works with passengers to resolve security alarms in a respectful and sensitive manner," the statement read. "We have reviewed the circumstances involving this screening and determined that our officers acted professionally, according to proper procedure and did not require this passenger to remove an adult diaper."

Weber said that airport security advised her that they could not examine the contents of the diaper, which was soiled. "They said they would have to be removed and I had to take her to the airport restroom outside of security to do that." Otherwise, Weber said, " ... they would have not released her to board the plane."
TSA officials offered to retrieve Reppert's luggage off the plane so that she could change into a clean diaper, the Associated Press reported, but Weber said time constraints did not allow for that." End Quote]

TSA is now saying that they never requested the depends to be "REMOVED". That may be true but clearly something transpired. Either the TSA agent who was doing the pat-down detected the aroma and took it upon themselves to suggest that the diaper be changed in order for them to handle doing their job, or some type of scanning process detected the soiling and TSA had to follow the rules and determine beyond a reasonable doubt that the brown substance was not an explosive? So in essence the depends wasn't to be removed but "changed" in this case?

If it was the former, then as mrrodie suggests maybe the agent felt they were doing the pax a favor? (as in "hey I think a trip to the bathroom is in order") If it was the latter, then TSA has serious issues and a lot of reworking is in order. In that case the real question is "Exactly what was the perceived threat from Ms Weber and her ill 95 year old mother?" Is there a reasonable concern that these two individuals are going to cause an airplane harm in this instance? I'm sorry just because someone in Upper Angola tried to put a bomb in the underwear once does not justify a blanket policy IMHO.

For the "its the price we have to pay crowd...", I want to be on the line to see the looks on your faces when a TSA agent tells you to please go to the rest room and change into a fresh pair of BVD's, as the scanner has picked up a skid-mark and we need to verify it's not a dangerous substance. :wink:

[PhilDernerJr]

Phil paying a high price for security is fine, but not for incompetence, and failure.

We can only talk case by case, from what's being reported (although I've read conflicting reports so far on this one) I see nothing wrong with what happened. Wanna fly? Change your diaper or the diaper of the person you care for. Everything that happened was done in private it seems and if you know the risk or someone check everything on your person exists and you don't like that, take a train or ship.

[gonzalu]

The procedure is fundamentally flawed and demeaning to the public. This goes beyond reasonable search procedures Manny as the "standard procedure" the TSA is standing behind. You have a 95 year old woman, wheelchair bound, who's on her last days, some respect and humility is deserved. We are a civil society but we've let this organization run wild coming up with procedures that utterly demean the very citizens its tasked to protect...yet time and time again they've failed test upon test. If this was a privately held company they would be out of business and rightly so.

I don;t really balme the line folks that much as much as management. it always starts at the top... and that philosophy has to be bred... anyway.

As for experiences, I have had nothing but fine experiences at ALL the airports foreign and domestic... the only snags have been in the SLOWNESS but never an issue... I follow procedures, make no fuss about anything, follow the basic rules.. never an incident.

I also feel that there are far more happy customers and good transactions than the poor ones we hear about. I do not believe the whole system is either corrupt or incapable as some would have you believe. If experience is any indication, all I have to complain about is the lack of resources at the busiest checkpoints.

[T-Bird76]

We can only talk case by case, from what's being reported (although I've read conflicting reports so far on this one) I see nothing wrong with what happened. Wanna fly? Change your diaper or the diaper of the person you care for. Everything that happened was done in private it seems and if you know the risk or someone check everything on your person exists and you don't like that, take a train or ship.

Well Phil if you took the train you may be subjected to the TSA's VIPR program....

[gonzalu]

I really don;t know what the big deal is... out of what? 10,000,000 travelers a day? one or two incidents of humiliation that sound really juicy? Why should Grandma get better respect than Junior or Senior? Give me a fat break... we are all either equal or not... If I am subject to it, so shoudl everyone else. It is like censorship, where do you draw the line? Who makes the decision? When does it hurt someone?

Mistakes can happen, will happen, etc. etc.

Would you say the ATC at JFK are real seasoned pros or amateurs? Do they have runway incursions? Of course they do... not saying TSA agents are cream of the crop but I am not so sure the whole thing is the epic failure some here make it out to be. I sense real deep rooted hostility in some of the posts here... not sure why. But usually more educated conversation and discussion goes further.

As someone else mentioned, imagine life with Israeli-style security. "You want to get to Atlanta in two hours? Sorry hun, that will be 24 hours if you're lucky and have not had a speeding ticket in 10 years." I heard they begin a background check as soon as you book your flight...

[FlyFotos]

" I heard they begin a background check as soon as you book your flight...

48 years since their one and only successful hijacking, while being probably the largest target of terrorist activity, sitting smack dab in the middle of Terrorisms Mecca (sorry couldn't resist) they must be doing something right..

[emshighway]

OK, time again to chime in. Thanks T-Bird for broad-banding and calling me and the people I work with names without knowing us or the truth. You are anti-TSA and find any way to make a negative comment just like those at FlyerTalk.com. How do I know you are anti TSA, oh by the standard verbiage you use. I am waiting for the Shoe Nazi comment soon.

Thank you others for seeing the situations for what they are.

Yes there are incidents. That's what happens when you handle millions of people daily. As stated by others there are other government agencies and private agencies that have incidents also, but the TSA is just a great target for people who don't like the process and the front line people are easy targets. I love some comments I have seen that said "Women with Cancer..." How the hell are we suppose to know that!!! Unfortunately the line personnel have to follow a strict SOP. There have been people terminated for not doing so. Yes, TSA personnel do get terminated and are held accountable for their actions.

People state why isn't TSA doing more like Israel. These are the same people who would be the first to balk if that was the case.

A lot of these stories blast out across the media then the truth comes out and there is no mention of it or it is buried on page 50.

Unfortunately I can't tell you via a public forum about the incidents where people have smuggled items and weapons in wheelchairs and on children. We are not talking overseas either but an airport near you.



TSA is now saying that they never requested the depends to be "REMOVED". That may be true but clearly something transpired. Either the TSA agent who was doing the pat-down detected the aroma and took it upon themselves to suggest that the diaper be changed in order for them to handle doing their job, or some type of scanning process detected the soiling and TSA had to follow the rules and determine beyond a reasonable doubt that the brown substance was not an explosive? So in essence the depends wasn't to be removed but "changed" in this case?



All I can say is you hit the nail on the head...

[T-Bird76]

OK, time again to chime in. Thanks T-Bird for broad-banding and calling me and the people I work with names without knowing us or the truth. You are anti-TSA and find any way to make a negative comment just like those at FlyerTalk.com. How do I know you are anti TSA, oh by the standard verbiage you use. I am waiting for the Shoe Nazi comment soon.

Thank you others for seeing the situations for what they are.

Yes there are incidents. That's what happens when you handle millions of people daily. As stated by others there are other government agencies and private agencies that have incidents also, but the TSA is just a great target for people who don't like the process and the front line people are easy targets. I love some comments I have seen that said "Women with Cancer..." How the hell are we suppose to know that!!! Unfortunately the line personnel have to follow a strict SOP. There have been people terminated for not doing so. Yes, TSA personnel do get terminated and are held accountable for their actions.

People state why isn't TSA doing more like Israel. These are the same people who would be the first to balk if that was the case.

A lot of these stories blast out across the media then the truth comes out and there is no mention of it or it is buried on page 50.

Unfortunately I can't tell you via a public forum about the incidents where people have smuggled items and weapons in wheelchairs and on children. We are not talking overseas either but an airport near you.



All I can say is you hit the nail on the head...

You're welcome! I do know some of you and the backgrounds, but like yourself I cannot comment in a public forum. Care to weigh in on the Cancer Cluster at Boston Logan? I thought you stated those scanners were tested to be safe? Some of your agents would now tend to disagree. Never understood why the TSA just didn't have a third party physicist confirm the dose levels... There's a reason the TSA is an easy target...

[gonzalu]

Daughter speaks up

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2011/06/28/daughter-speaks-out-after-tsa-forces-her-95-year-old-mother-to-remove-adult-diaper/

[T-Bird76]

Daughter speaks up

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2011/06/28/daughter-speaks-out-after-tsa-forces-her-95-year-old-mother-to-remove-adult-diaper/


Hmmm I may not be an expert on high level security protocols but sounds to me like this...."either remove the diaper or you ain't flying." Nah that's not forcing someone..not at all. For those who think nothing wrong was done here and you would not be upset if this happened to your family...you’re being totally disingenuous... Simply because you have an "SOP", "Procedure", or whatever else you want to call it doesn't mean it’s not incredibly stupid...

[emshighway]

“I have no problem with someone doing their job; I have a problem with the protocol,” she said. “Someone in a wheelchair is the last person who needs to be subjected to a pat-down.”


Actually they are due to the possibility of smuggling and item. Easily used to throw off an Officer.



“When I started crying, that triggered security that I might be a type of a risk because I had a ‘different behavior,’” Weber said.


Actually needed to be cleared because you just had a person who had a suspect item on them and then when they come back they are cleared. The person with them could have put the item on themselves.

TSA Officers would love to treat everyone as just all innocent but then they fail a test which is done (yes, including people in wheelchairs) and risk losing their job.

Unfortunately EVERYONE is suspect until proved otherwise.

[emshighway]

"either remove the diaper or you ain't flying."

No one ever said that!!! They said they were unable to clear the suspect "wad".

See it is comments that are taken out of context or just plainly mis-stated that feeds the misinformation of what the actual agenda is and that is to further your cause against the TSA as a whole. We should have ESP and know you are coming toward the checkpoint and part the seas and throw the red carpet down because you approach. How dare us mear mortals question your superiority.


Simply because you have an "SOP", "Procedure", or whatever else you want to call it doesn't mean it’s not incredibly stupid...

And so are many laws but they must be followed.

[T-Bird76]

And so are many laws but they must be followed.

AHHHH!! We have our Frost/Nixon moment finally!! The admission we've all been looking for! The TSA admits their protocols are incredibly stupid!!! :cool::cool::cool: This topic of discussion is over! :) Glad I was able to spice things up a bit!

[Art at ISP]

I was going to stay out of this one, because I can see points on both sides of the argument. I just read a thread, however, in another site, which indicates that there is a dramatic surge in TSA employees developing cancer from exposure to these new scanners.

I am posting the links here, but IF proven true, I think this opens up a WHOLE other can of worms...
http://www.infowars.com/cancer-surges-in-body-scanner-operators-tsa-launches-cover-up/

http://www.tgdaily.com/hardware-features/56899-tsa-ignored-warnings-on-cancer-cluster

There was another link to a set of emails, but as that is of dubious legality I am refraining from posting that here.

Point is--my wife as you know is a cancer survivor and has gotten legislation passed to MANDATE disclosure of information which can help catch breast cancer early. We are VERY sensitive to radiation issues, and IF this is true, it changes the whole complexion of the issue.

[emshighway]

Sorry, not an official TSA comment but nice try.

[emshighway]

If experience is any indication, all I have to complain about is the lack of resources at the busiest checkpoints.

You have to blame Congress on this one. They are the ones who set the number of Officers and their bill cuts the number by 5000 this year. Oh by the way the way there are only 43,000 Officers nationwide and every airport gets a piece of the pie.

[emshighway]

I was going to stay out of this one, because I can see points on both sides of the argument. I just read a thread, however, in another site, which indicates that there is a dramatic surge in TSA employees developing cancer from exposure to these new scanners.

I am posting the links here, but IF proven true, I think this opens up a WHOLE other can of worms...
http://www.infowars.com/cancer-surges-in-body-scanner-operators-tsa-launches-cover-up/

http://www.tgdaily.com/hardware-features/56899-tsa-ignored-warnings-on-cancer-cluster

There was another link to a set of emails, but as that is of dubious legality I am refraining from posting that here.

Point is--my wife as you know is a cancer survivor and has gotten legislation passed to MANDATE disclosure of information which can help catch breast cancer early. We are VERY sensitive to radiation issues, and IF this is true, it changes the whole complexion of the issue.

I haven't analyzed this all yet. My personal opinion is I would prefer to see the thermal imagers. There wouldn't be the radiation or privacy issues as it doesn't emit anything and just shows cold spots. The Back Scatter and Millimeter wave were pushed out by order of the President. I have been through the Backscatter many times and have been there during the radiation leak tests and seen the readings.

Not to make excuses but pretty much everything is emitting radiation or EMFs. Look at cell phones. Many reports show they cause cancer but sales are at the highest.