Air France collision taxing at JFK [Archive]

Matt Molnar

2011-04-11, 11:30 PM

Now a Delta flight is coming in with steering problems. 22R. Not a good night for Delta..
They also had an MD-80 make an emergency landing tonight in RDU while flying JFK-FLL due to "electrical odor."

Here's our story re the A380 in case anyone missed it: Air France Airbus A380 Clips Smaller Delta Jet at Kennedy Airport in New York (http://nycaviation.com/2011/04/air-france-airbus-a380-clips-smaller-delta-jet-at-kennedy-airport-in-new-york/)

gonzalu

2011-04-12, 03:48 AM

In the video it looks really bad... man that was a serious smack!!! wow!

JFK Airport Management Office: Telephone Rings... "Hello, this is the manager"
Voice on the other end: "Uhhhh, boss? We gonna need bigger taxiways"

seahawks7757

2011-04-12, 04:24 AM

Dude, that A380 just layed out the CRJ. Surprised no one on the CRJ was injured.

Matt Molnar

2011-04-12, 04:26 AM

ATC audio:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjuCI2yAVD8

hiss srq

2011-04-12, 05:07 AM

It was an eventful night. Didnt get much sleep after that incident for sure

hiss srq

2011-04-12, 05:51 AM

Newsday article with a rather familiar image... http://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/2-planes-collide-at-jfk-no-one-hurt-1.2813326

Spunker

2011-04-12, 08:49 AM

They can call this Smackdown at JFK. Glad no one was injured, that was quite a wack.

CX777

2011-04-12, 09:06 AM

Flew 007 last year to LFPG. I am really surprised with all the CCTV cameras A380 has this could not be avoided. The SUPER did come to stop on the dime. And bet the murphys law in aviation is at play here.... GC missed it, PF missed it and the narrow alley with darkness did only to thrust this to a major event. Very lucky no one hurt.

Ychocky

2011-04-12, 09:09 AM

Holy crap Comair 6293 was cool calm and collected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMKGv3KFqKo

Yikes.

Knocked around like a toy.

T-Bird76

2011-04-12, 09:46 AM

That must have been some jolt on the CRJ...I'd wager to guess someone might be looking for a new job this morning...

Derf

2011-04-12, 10:43 AM

WOW, That must have been some ride for the pilots in that Delta!

Spunker

2011-04-12, 11:28 AM

The way that CRJ was spun around I would think there may be some other structural damage than just the horizontal stabilizer. Does anyone know if that was the same AF 380 that got clipped by the AF 330 in Paris?

hiss srq

2011-04-12, 11:46 AM

The CRJ has extensive damage that is not entirely defineable in the images from last night. There are many many ripples in the fues skin, and major damage to the right wing as well among other issues... It wasnt as clean of a hit as the video makes it out to be.

RomNYC

2011-04-12, 12:26 PM

Makes you think twice before unfastening your seatbelt before the plane gets to the gate :o

RomNYC

2011-04-12, 12:28 PM

Btw, just wondering, who is to be blamed in this case?

moose135

2011-04-12, 12:32 PM

Hard to say, but if you are driving and run into a parked car, what will your insurance company think?

MarkLawrence

2011-04-12, 12:33 PM

Btw, just wondering, who is to be blamed in this case?

That's a darn good question - because they are going to want to blame someone - I'm thinking the poor ground controller is going to end up with it - the taxiing skipper isn't going to be looking at what his wing is clearing - the CRJ skipper won't be looking at what is coming behind him - and the ground controller has it on radar and knows it's a 380 and what the limits are....anyone agree/disagree??

Zee71

2011-04-12, 12:37 PM

Holy smokes!!!! Unbelieveable.............looks like that Air France was moving at a pretty good rate to spin that puppy around like a toy.

tsnamm

2011-04-12, 12:43 PM

They moved it this AM to behind Hangar 5, I assume to begin repairs....

hiss srq

2011-04-12, 12:51 PM

The ground controller will have no liability nor will the ramp controller in a situation like this. The crews will be totally liable. The CRJ's tail was protruding out past the hold short line onto the active taxiway though. It will likely fall in some sort of 40/60 type liability because the CRJ was protruding into a movement area from a non movement area and the 380 didnt exercise judgement. Not to mention, he will moving a little quick. Estimates put rate of speed around 20 knots or so. On another note..... Ground radar is not that precise that distances can be determined to within inches like that.... The primary purpose is to determine absolute location. Not absulute distance.

gonzalu

2011-04-12, 01:17 PM

While we are being Armchair Quarterbacks :-)

I think the fault lies entirely on the crew that either pushed the CRJ back or did not entirely pull it all the way in. The taxiways are clearly marked for that reason. The airport was modified for just that reason, to accomodate the clearances of the A380 wings. How can the AFR pilot even know the wing tip would hit the CRJ? I don;t think it is that easy to judge from the cockpit unless the intrusion was obvious and from the video, it looks like it hit the very tip of the wing.

Speed would not have played a role.. slower would still not matter much.

And for the record, while at HoBe recently, an AFR A380 refused to move further unless a port truck checked for clearance when passing an Giant Air 747 cargo going the other way. And on another occassion, an AFR 777 did the same thing when they did not see for sure if a Delta 767 would be cleared while they moved to the T1 gates.

I think the crews on the ground with the Delta were sure there was enough clearance as I did not see anyone in the BACK of it running before the hit, indicating that they saw the clearance was not met. I thought there always has to be someone behind the plane as it is moving... I can not believe that position was a final one for the Delta... it most likely was just there temporarily while doing something else?

It seems to me that Delta and jetBlue have encroached upon the main taxiways quite a lot from my last trip... they come really close to the edges of the taxiway...

RomNYC

2011-04-12, 01:24 PM

That makes complete sense, Moose. But pilots are also given instruction on where to go/park, correct? Somebody here either did not follow instructions, or was given bad instructions.

m.marra

2011-04-12, 01:31 PM

Wouldn't the CRJ have to report stopped in the movement area? The audioshows the A380 was instructed to hold-short of taxiway "E" and giveway to opposite direction traffic at "KD", but nothing was mentionedabout taxiway "M". Thankfully nobody was injured. It does seem thepassengers got quite a jolt from this.

m.marra

2011-04-12, 01:34 PM

From what I understand, the CRJ was waiting on a gate to open up after arriving.

NIKV69

2011-04-12, 01:42 PM

I can't believe there was no neck injuries or something that looks like one hell of a jolt.

yankees368

2011-04-12, 01:43 PM

From what I understand, the CRJ was waiting on a gate to open up after arriving.

Correct. I've been in a CRJ-900 in that same exact position. They wait for their specific gate (not really a gate, but that stupid parking spot on the terminal extension for the regional jets). Each slot is market with the destination of the plane, and even though there are several other slots open and waiting, the incoming flight must wait for the designated slot to open up. So, an incoming flight that is going back out to Buffalo must wait for the Buffalo spot, and can't park in another spot. Very annoying since they are not real gates, just parking spots.

moose135

2011-04-12, 01:44 PM

The CRJ may have been holding until he could get into his gate, or until a marshaller could directed him in. If you watch the start of the video, a pickup truck drives past the front of the CRJ, he may have stopped to allow the vehicle to clear - or else the headline might have been "CRJ hits truck at JFK" :eek:

moose135

2011-04-12, 02:16 PM

A former Newsday co-worker, now at the Long Island Press, posted a link to their story about the collision, which used a photo of the Boeing 747-8 freighter. I complained to him, so he asked if I had a photo they could use...
http://www.longislandpress.com/2011/04/12/super-jumbo-jet-clips-spins-plane-at-jfk-airport/

yankees368

2011-04-12, 02:23 PM

The Newsday article was just updated (I hate to link to Newsday, but I'll do it anyway) and says "The pilot of the regional jet was "waiting to go into the gate area" when the collision happened, Peters said. The impact spun the regional jet nearly 90 degrees. There were no reported injuries, Peters said.

A review of the video indicates that the Comair jet apparently "was not far enough along on the taxiway" before the collision, Peters said.

"There could be a good reason for it," Peters said.

Anthony Black, spokesman for Delta Air Lines, said that the Comair jet, which carried 62 passengers and four crew members, had just turned a corner of the taxiway when the collision occurred.

"I don't know if it was waiting for a wing walker to get into place," Black said. "The entire collection of events will be part of the NTSB investigation."

So it is possible that the Comair flight was not far enough into the gate area.

gonzalu

2011-04-12, 02:31 PM

Hard to say, but if you are driving and run into a parked car, what will your insurance company think?

Hmmm, I think this is slightly different. We are dealing with very large machines, with parts that can't be seen from the cockpit etc. If pilots were to be held responsible just like a car driver is, they would request mirrors and cameras in certain places.

That being said, I say that cameras on the wing tips facing fore and aft would be tremendously beneficial... the pilots could have them show on the cockpit and see if the wing will clear or not from the perspective of the wingtip.

moose135

2011-04-12, 02:44 PM

We are dealing with very large machines, with parts that can't be seen from the cockpit etc. If pilots were to be held responsible just like a car driver is, they would request mirrors and cameras in certain places.
If you aren't sure you have clearance, you stop and request help, whether that is a marshaller, or a vehicle, or something else to ensure you are clear to proceed.

gonzalu

2011-04-12, 02:49 PM

True, but, in this case, I think they had reasonable assurance that it would clear, how would they know or why would they think otherwise? And while on the subject, it is usually pretty dark out there by the taxiways. I have seen it and past the perimeter it is pitch black...

and as I have said earlier, I have witnessed AFR pilots use extreme caution and done just as you said, even in full daylight... so I would think they should not be blamed for carelessness.

NIKV69

2011-04-12, 02:53 PM

If you aren't sure you have clearance, you stop and request help, whether that is a marshaller, or a vehicle, or something else to ensure you are clear to proceed.

He is taxing on a taxiway where he has clearance why wouldn't he think he had clearance? If every big aircraft that used that taxiway had to worry about other vehicles and aircraft not observing the hold short line JFK traffic would grind to a halt.

Fly2e

2011-04-12, 02:59 PM

Here is the video...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7aa_1302610917

gonzalu

2011-04-12, 05:20 PM

Here is the video...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7aa_1302610917

it's been linked to this thread already ;-)

gonzalu

2011-04-12, 05:20 PM

I wonder if anyone on-board has video of the tail cam from the A380 (if it was on at the time of the incident)

v1rotate

2011-04-12, 05:48 PM

Delta Connection planes pulling into that terminal 2 pad have a spot 99.99% of the time. If their spot is taken or the entrance onto the apron is blocked, they wait on the active taxiway until it is clear.

The bigger CRJs use the outer pads of gate 23 and 25 (Echo, Foxtrot, Papa, Quebec, and Romeo).

The reason it was holding there is because the pilots were waiting for a vehicle to clear the pad or for the marshaller and wing walkers to set up and guide the plane in.

I'm glad I didn't have to work that night because the Delta Connection operation must have been hectic.

Question... is KD between terminal 2 and 3 or is it the taxiway that leads into the Delta Connection apron?

RomNYC

2011-04-13, 01:52 AM

I wonder if anyone on-board has video of the tail cam from the A380 (if it was on at the time of the incident)

It usually is on from the moment it leaves the gate, but you don't actually see the end of the wings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1K35XFsSJI

DHG750R

2011-04-13, 03:42 AM

Saw the evening news on Ch2 earlier, seems they really need to have someone checking facts before they report them.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/04/12/emergency-recordings-of-airbus-superjumbo-jet-clipping-commerce-flight-at-jfk-released/

hmm an 120 pax CRJ7? 800 pax Airbus?

According to the National Transportation Safety Board (http://newyork.cbslocal.com/tag/NTSB/), which is leading the investigation, and the video, the 800-person capacity Air France mega plane was taxiing to its takeoff position when its left wing clipped the tail of a Comair 120-passenger CRJ 700 commuter plane that had just landed from Boston. The collision spun the smaller plane 90 degrees and heavily damaged both planes.

From the "aviation expert"

Aviation expert Norman Cousins told Kramer there is a design flaw in the Airbus. The end of its wings turn up, creating a blind spot. The Airbus pilot couldn’t see the smaller plane, he said.
“Even if he opened the window on the pilot side and stuck his head out he couldn’t get sharp angel to see behind him,” Cousins said

:confused:

Other planes besides the A380 have similar upturned wings — or winglets — including the 727, 747, DC-11 and all the Airbus planes.

Pilot: “Commerce 563 just hit us.”

hiss srq

2011-04-13, 09:44 AM

Most of you have gotten the details pretty close. The ground radar does not give a good enough desciption for investivative purposes but I was on scene about 15 minutes after the event. The Comair flight's tail was past the hold short line adjacent to A. The crew was waiting for a third wing walker. Air France was observing the center line and was moving along a good clip when they hit. The airframe damage to the CRJ is significant beyond what the pictures show. There is damage to the right wing tip, there is buckling in the air frame at multiple points and the nose and right gear took quite a bit of stress when it spun. As far as questions about procedure... Every ramp at JFK has a ramp controller above and beyond the clearnce, ground and local controllers that handle the stuff you might be traditionally familiar with. The controllers have no fault in the issue. You issue instructions based on the procedures that apply to the circumstance and expect the pilots to adhere to them as best as they can. If a pilot has a safety concern (I.E. insufficent wing walkers) they are well within authority as the PIC to stop short of those instructions. This was an unfortunate accident in reality. As for pilots and ramp crews encroaching... Delta's setup is very complex. They control only a small part of the ramp they actually own. The Connection ramp is controlled by the T1 controller, the NE side of Worldport is dictated by the T4 controller and all of their T4 ops are controlled by the T4 controller.

USAF Pilot 07

2011-04-13, 09:09 PM

The Air France pilots will most likely take most of the blame. They taxied into a stationary object!

They should have seen the CRJ and as someone alluded to earlier, if they weren't sure about whether or not they'd have enough clearance on the wings, they should have stopped and asked for help. Most companies have minimum wingtip clearance requirements. For example, some companies require at least 25 feet wingtip clearance without wing-walkers on all taxiways, ramps and runways (with the exception sometimes of terminal ramps) which can be reduced to 10 feet with wing-walkers (or when waived).

In the DC-10, you cannot see the wingtips from the windows unless your seat position is just right and you crane your neck all the way back and plaster your face on the window. Even then you can barely make out the wingtip. But, we have references inside the cockpit that when "interpolated" (for lack of a better word) outside give you a very good idea of where you're dragging your wingtip, main landing gear and even engine. I'd imagine it's the same with a lot of heavy aircraft, the A380 being no exception. While it's not an exact science, you should be able to tell if something is within 25 feet of your wingtip.

My guess is that the CRJ's tail was either protruding over the taxiway line and the AF crew didn't see it, or was just inside it and the AF crew was perhaps taxiing left of the centerline. Not to mention, it looks like the AF380 is moving at a pretty good rate of speed when it slams into the CRJ.

gonzalu

2011-04-13, 09:25 PM

So maybe they felt they HAD clearance as they should have rightly felt ... the Airport is been FAA certified for clearance and lines painted where those clearances meet... why else would the AFR pilot not seem worried? And as I said, it is DARK out there. HE may not have even seen the tail of that bird. A beacon is no indication of relative position of all the parts for give aircraft and then you have to have a mental database of all such ?

No way, blame should be on the ground crew not pulling that bird a bit further in... AFR did nothing wrong... he was cleared to taxi and given the rules (keep centerline, airport is certified, etc. etc.) he has every right to expect the clearance. Man, if not, that place would be a dead still given how many times planes come close to each other.

Can things be improved? ABSOLUTELY. I agree with you that perhaps all feelings of inability to clear should result in a stop and check/escort... but hindsight is always 20/20, let's talk about solutions, because clearly to me in this case, AFR had nothing to be blamed for. Had it been a 747 Delta, the feelings may be expressed differently I am sure :tongue:

Zee71

2011-04-13, 10:31 PM

Murphy's Law came into play that night and the scenario played out. Maybe it's time to consider filling in parts of Jamaica Bay and moving runways and taxiways.

mirrodie

2011-04-13, 10:50 PM

Runways and taxiways were just moved recently.

Amazing video. Looks like my son running past our younger daughter and clotheslining her. Seriously.

I am really surprised that there were no injuries. IU would nOT be surprised ot hear of whiplash injuries. That makes sense. Wow.

hiss srq

2011-04-13, 10:52 PM

I am not surte what the USAF reg is but the wing to tail clearnce is MINIMUM 50 feet... the reason for it is safety of spacing but also because there is a risk of fire or explosion from getting any closer to a running APU or a jet engine with a wing tip... Being too tired to go on a technichal tirade at the moment there are vents in most jets wing tips and exhaust is very hot. You do the math while I go to sleep.

gonzalu

2011-04-13, 11:28 PM

1+1=3, 77 to the 15th power is 43-6 * coeficient of drag squared to the root of the sub coeficiancy spectrumal analyptical.... zzzzzzzzzzzzz

njgtr82

2011-04-14, 12:42 AM

Looks like Air France has to be most at fault here.

FlyFotos

2011-04-14, 08:08 AM

... the Airport is been FAA certified for clearance and lines painted where those clearances meet...:

Not to nit pick, but when on the centerline, you're only guaranteed not to hit FIXED objects; it is still the PIC's responsibility to maintain adequate clearance from the moveable objects. As long as the aircraft is under power, and the parking brake is not set, the flight crew is responsible for anything that the aircraft hits.

gonzalu

2011-04-14, 09:10 AM

njgtr82

2011-04-14, 12:33 PM

That's fair... but what I meant was the AFR pilot was correct in assuming that given the Delta's parking postion, he trusted it was parked where it was supposed to be and it would clear, if the tail was indeed beyond the yellow line ... I say once again, it is dark out there at the A and B taxiways. Because it was borderline, it was a reasonable accident in my opinion, without bad judgement on either part. Purely accidental and no wrongdoing. Everyone will learn from this and this similar incident probably will not happen again.

I have to disagree Manny, at EWR alone we've had something similar happen twice in the last 4 years where an aircraft thought there was enough wingtip clearance and kept on going only to clip another aircraft. Its a judgment call and no one's perfect, especially not the French!

USAF Pilot 07

2011-04-14, 11:02 PM

Trust but verify...

I mean, whoever was taxiing that aircraft should have been looking outside. It's not like the accident happened on a turn or in a tight spot. The AFR jet hit another aircraft on a straight taxiway. That's pretty inexcusable. It's doesn't matter what he assumed - yes he was given clearance to taxi down a taxiway that ATC thought was clear, but ATC doesn't fly your airplane. If you feel like you're given a clearance that would put your aircraft in jeopardy, you don't accept it - or you query ATC about it. Yes, it was dark, but it's wasn't pitch black. One of the pilots should have at least said "wow, that aircraft looks pretty close, what do you think?".

gonzalu

2011-04-15, 12:05 AM

I'll defer to you guys because you are experts and I am a bystander but, I do have first hand experience of how dark it is right where it happened. Both from the street looking out and being on a plane taxiing there more than once. You can;t see the ground almost at all.

Yeah, I see your point about questioning the location of the plane and whether it was too close or not. But that is exactly my point and I think you should just consider what I am saying... the AFR pilot could have naturally ALSO concluded, it looks to be in the right place and we should have clearance. Look at how little the overlap was. Given the size of the wings on that plane, it is easy to say that something downrange looks to be reasonably far enough... OK so now they will have to judge with even more of a margin of error but I say it was a reasonably understandable misjudgement. Unless that Delta was directly in the path, it is hard to judge just how far away is far enough with certainty.

The ycalled it close and they lost but I can see how they could make the mistake... the conditions were perfect for it to happen the way it did.

Now I hear a report that the Delta almost hit a truck on its way into the ramp? before the collision with the AFR?

Zee71

2011-04-15, 07:15 PM

While landing on 13L this afternoon I was able to snap off a few shots. Here is a shot of the AF 380 sitting behind the triple hangers. In the photo you can see the sissor lift with a couple of guys looking at the damage. Sorry about the quality but my window seat was filty.

http://mbsphotography.smugmug.com/Aviation/Odd-Stuff/i-dMHNK3F/0/L/airfrance_01_jfk_15apr2011_ramp-L.jpg

Updated 4/16
Took a quick ride to see the damage up close. Looks like these guys are hustling to get the bird fixed and flight worthy. (DUE TO POTENTIAL ISSUES I REMOVED THE PHOTOs).