Spotting in Snow

[adscram14]

Looks like I'll be headed out to JFK tomorrow morning. Any tips on snow spotting? Is it any good?
Thanks!

[NIKV69]

Was thinking about headed out but only if there was Sun but looks like this storm may make roads a mess so I will be taking a pass. Let us know how it goes.

[adscram14]

Was thinking about headed out but only if there was Sun but looks like this storm may make roads a mess so I will be taking a pass. Let us know how it goes.
Last time we were here (Summer) we went to JFK right after a tornado swept LI. I guess now we'll see how snow spotting is.

[gonzalu]

As long as there is no snow IN THE AIR, it should be terrific to have all that natural bounce card reflecting on the bellies :-)

If there is snow falling, you will not be happy with the image quality. Rain is a bit more forgiving than snow... snow actually blocks and reflects light where at least water somewhat passes it through. Compress enough of it and you are bound to have very very flat images. My main tip is to stay dry and be safe getting to and from. I say 4R landings and 22L landings will be your best opportunity for quality shots as you are the closest.

[Zee71]

I was thinking about some snow spotting as well, so I might be around. This would be a first for me...........snow spotting. Depending on how bad it gets, they'll probably close the airport. Here's the latest weather alert:

...BLIZZARD WARNING IN EFFECT FROM 6 AM SUNDAY TO 6 PM EST
MONDAY...

THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE IN UPTON HAS ISSUED A BLIZZARD
WARNING...WHICH IS IN EFFECT FROM 6 AM SUNDAY TO 6 PM EST MONDAY.
THE WINTER STORM WATCH IS NO LONGER IN EFFECT.

* LOCATIONS...NORTHEAST NEW JERSEY...NEW YORK CITY AND ITS
IMMEDIATE SUBURBS...LONG ISLAND...AND COASTAL AND INTERIOR
SOUTHEAST CONNECTICUT.

* HAZARDS...HEAVY SNOW AND STRONG WINDS...WITH CONSIDERABLE
BLOWING AND DRIFTING OF SNOW AND NEAR ZERO VISIBILITY AT TIMES.

* ACCUMULATIONS...11 TO 16 INCHES...WITH LOCALLY HIGHER AMOUNTS
POSSIBLE IN HEAVIER SNOW BANDS WHOSE EXACT LOCATION IS STILL TOO
EARLY TO DETERMINE. SNOW MAY MIX WITH OR CHANGE TO RAIN AND
SLEET AT THE HEIGHT OF THE STORM LATE SUNDAY NIGHT ACROSS
EASTERN LONG ISLAND...AND POSSIBLY ACROSS COASTAL SOUTHEAST
CONNECTICUT...WHICH COULD HOLD DOWN AMOUNTS THERE...BUT ONLY
AFTER SIGNIFICANT ACCUMULATIONS HAVE ALREADY TAKEN PLACE.

[adscram14]

Manny- Where would I go for 4R arrivals that's close? I know about Bayswater but thats still pretty far away. Wouldn't Firestone/Panera be closer (31s)?

Mark- Hopefully it's not to terrible in the morning 8-11AM...

[Zee71]

The other spot for 4R arrivals would be Inwood Park, but you'll need a lens with some extra reach. I think 400mm may be okay, but not sure.

Panera Bread would be good for 31R arrivals.

The winds are suppose to be out of the north and then north-west tomorrow with extreme gusts. I'm thinking they may go with the 31s, and try to keep 31L open as long as they can.

[JDANDO]

If it is snowing, I would say do not bother if you have to use anything longer than 100mm. I got snowed out yesterday here in MN :frown: I am hoping for some sun on Monday!

[gonzalu]

Manny- Where would I go for 4R arrivals that's close? I know about Bayswater but that's still pretty far away. Wouldn't Firestone/Panera be closer (31s)?

Mark- Hopefully it's not to terrible in the morning 8-11AM...

Actually, Panera is deceiving... the planes are FAR :-) take this fact for instance:

To fill the frame (Full Frame Sensor) at

Panera-
Airbus A340-600 = 360-400mm tight crop
Boeing 777-200/300 = 350-380mm

Bayswater 4R-
A340-x 70-100mm
Boeing 74x, 77x, 70-120mm

Depends on where you stand as 50 yards will yield about 20 to 40mm of FL.

On The Mounds 22L, 747, 777, A340, A388, and the like will need only 150 to 180mm to fill a Full Frame sensor. If using Crop Sensors, well, you need a lot less FL ;-)
The above is from my own experiences... the Canon crop is 1.6x which is even more restrictive. o

On my D3, if I have the 200-400mm mounted at Bayswater, when the planes are in front of me I have too much FL. I usually have the D2Xs (crop) with the 200-400mm and the D3 (Full Frame) with the 70-200mm and will switch as needed. Same thing at the mounds. I use the long lens for the approach compression and engine/nose compression after passing and the D3+70-200 for the mid shot.

I am crazy and most people would be just fine with a crop sensor and a Sigma 50-500mm for the absolute most flexibility. I am anal about IQ so I lug around lots of weight!

As for the snow, well, anything further than say 100 yards away and 100mm, you'll be compressing lots of mud and get resulting mud. If you do it (and I do it too) is for the sheer fun of it, not to show it off on A.net lol. Although, the hope is for a pause in the precip. and some nice light and then bam, great images!

[Zee71]

Manny when shooting in the snow do you recommend increasing the exposure compensation in other to keep the snow more white-ish? If so, how much? I'm thinking a stop or two. Otherwise th snow will be gary-ish.

[gonzalu]

BTW, it is ~700 meters from Panera to the flightline on 31R and about 450 meters from Bayswater to the 4R flightline... about 425 meters from The Mounds to the 22L flightline

[gonzalu]

Manny when shooting in the snow do you recommend increasing the exposure compensation in other to keep the snow more white-ish? If so, how much? I'm thinking a stop or two. Otherwise th snow will be gary-ish.

Mark for me, with Nikon meters, the rules I foloow are:

Center Weighted or Spot meters will turn anything neutral into gray. The MATRIX meter is calibrated to try and get backlit scenes and snow/sand, etc. properly exposed. It is only as good as the database of images it has to pick from. I can bet you $1,000,000 the database DOES NOT include images of a small object in the middle of the frame with pure white snow around it LOL.

So if I use the spot/ctr weighted meters, I will push it +1-1 1/2 stops for white subjects and -1 - 1 1/2 stops for dark subjects. Your histogram is your friend.

For large subjects, I prefer the spot meter, for not so large subjects the center weighted meter with a 10mm circle. I usually pre-set my compensation on Deltas and JetBlues .. Americans chrome bodies
are hell on me :-( I will usually just hope or Manual expose them LOL. Same goes for the Cathay silver bullet. I can never get it properly exposed unless i use manual.

My usual setup at airshows, where I have the most experience (I am still struggling with proper exposure technique on airliners)

--On a Full Sunny Summer Day, hard shadows: Matrix Meter, Aperture Pri f/8 with -1/3 EV comp. ISO 200 to 400 depending on situation
--Heavy Clouds, soft shadows: Matrix, Apreture Pri, f/6.3 with +1/3 EV comp. ISO 400 to 800
--Overcast, no shadows: Spot Meter (Fighters, small craft) or Center Weighted (C-5 Galaxy, C-130 Hercules, KC-135 etc.) +1/3 EV on gray aircraft, +1 1/2 EV on Thunderbirds/Coast Guard, White aircraft, -1 EV on Blue Angels, -2 EV on U-2, B-2, F-117 etc.

I will usually tweak the above through the day as needed, hardly ever though. They are just guide points... only your taste will suffice. I want to nail the exposure. SLIGHTLY blowing a white will ruin your shot... period.

My general rule is, overexpose a dark subject a bit, no sweat. Blown whites, not good! Underexpose a dark subject, NO GOOD! There is no data in there to begin with LOL. Underexpose a light subject, not so bad.

BRING BACK KODACHROME 64 :-) Also, with Kodacolor VR 400 you could play games of 15 stops exposure latitudes and still get good prints... hahhaha. It was ajoke to expose that film. Accidents of exposing it at ISO 800 - 1000 would still yield great results if you told the lab to develop it accordingly etc. etc. Negative film was easy. White balance on Kodachrome was just pure joy! But you needed good clear sunlight :-)

[gonzalu]

Mark, also keep in mind that shooting a closeup of a face in the snow vs. shooting the whole person in the snow asks for COMPLETELY DIFFERENT exposures ... when you're dealing with a plane at 1000 yards, all this stuff goes out the window and you either follow strict rules or trial and error it. I love trial and error... and I am a slave to it! I have given up discipline developed while using slide film and have succumbed to the histogram. :-( I am sad about that... I am teaching my daughter basic photography and was embarrassed to forget some things...

[Zee71]

Thanks for the great info. I recall last time I took photo's of snow (not planes or people) just general snow shots outdoors I pushed my EV by +1

[JDANDO]

Hey Adam;

Here are few images from Spotting in the Snow, MN style.

Dual plow set up
http://jeremyd.smugmug.com/Airplanes/24-dec-2010-msp/1S7T3857plow/1137506152_65fCW-L.jpg

Snow blower working on the taxiways
http://jeremyd.smugmug.com/Airplanes/24-dec-2010-msp/1S7T3863blower/1137506153_PFvMy-L.jpg

A Christmas special cargo plane for UPS, Evergreen 747. Taken at 400mm.
http://jeremyd.smugmug.com/Airplanes/24-dec-2010-msp/1S7T3875400mm/1137506177_wxHiG-L.jpg


Evergreen departure +1 1/3 EV, 105mm, F8, 1/800, ISO 500
http://jeremyd.smugmug.com/Airplanes/24-dec-2010-msp/1S7T3939evergreenfiltered/1137506175_goTLa-L.jpg

These are just some quick edits. I got nothing usable, but did have a good time. Got to see a "Conga Line" of plows which was cool.

Manny, great comments on exposure. Thanks for the detailed explanation.

[Zee71]

Wow..........talk about white out conditions. Hardly can make out that Evergreen. Cool image of the snow blower..........wish I had something like that to clear the block :)

[adscram14]

Agree with Mark.
Went to JFK this morning. Bayswater was closed, and inwood was too far. Went to LGA for an hour, pics later.

[gonzalu]

Bayswater needs one of us to be the gatekeeper :-)

[Zee71]

I stopped by JFK and took a few shots, but not much action as conditions are degrading. The salt spreaders were out and treating the runways and taxi ways, and the rest of the snow crew was out treating the roads in and out of the airport. Here are a few images:


http://mbsphotography.smugmug.com/Aviation/Odd-Stuff/ELAL01JFK26Dec2010/1137643325_NW7DD-XL.jpg

De-icers getting ready
http://mbsphotography.smugmug.com/Aviation/Odd-Stuff/Deicers01JFK26Dec2010/1137643089_gbgUt-XL.jpg

Conditions going down hill
http://mbsphotography.smugmug.com/Aviation/Odd-Stuff/AtlasAir01JFK26Dec2010/1137642831_dSa4d-XL.jpg

FedEx heading out
http://mbsphotography.smugmug.com/Aviation/Odd-Stuff/FedEx01JFK26Dec2010/1137643641_QRHUe-XL.jpg

[Lrusso]

Way to brave the snow! Wish I could of gone out today but I'm not confident to say that I'd make it back to my house :frown:. Love listening to OPS today on LiveATC, I hate snow but at least it brings interesting and hopefully safe aircraft operations.

Looking forward to the LGA pics.

Braking action reported as fair at KLGA, still good at KJFK.

[adscram14]

Mark, where did you get your pictures from?

[Zee71]

Adam..........check your PM.

Hats off to the pilots who fly in these types of conditions.

[gonzalu]

Cathay 831 Heavy Aborting Takeoff due to runway conditions .. Returning to the gate.

[Zee71]

As of 6pm.....they were departing from 4R while plowing runway 4L.......do I wish I was out there!

[sporky]

Just heard on LiveATC.net that JFK is now closed.

-Tad

[gonzalu]

I love how there are planes out there actually asking if the runways will open any time soon LOL. Just heard on JFK ground ... also Dynasty (Air China Cargo) was taxiing around for some reason!

[Lrusso]

All the Airports are expected to remain closed until at least 4 PM.

Was listening to KBOS atc last night was very funny to hear the tower talk about the arrival 30 minutes out instead of 3942380432 planes.

[Lrusso]

RJA261 first one in at the newly opened kennedy airport, reported braking action good.

Regional jet infront of him went missed. Wind is really whipping out there.

RJA struggling to taxi reporting that they are very slippery.

LOL Ground controller goes "Just taxi anyway you can"

[Zee71]

I'm listening to ATC as well, a heavy just landed and ATC informs the pilot .... "contact ground on ...... and good luck finding a gate!" It's going to be nuts. As of now my street has yet to be plowed so I can't even get out to do some spotting ..... If I only had a pair of snow shoes or tennis rackets, I'd tie them to my boots and make the trek out. LoL

[adscram14]

I'm also listening to ATC...oh boy. What a mess. Jordanian hasn't even gotten to the gate yet. They're waiting to clear the ramp.
EDIT: Farmingdale has a disabled aircraft. Just heard a divert coming to JFK.