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View Full Version : National Opt Out Day We. 24Nov



coachrowsey
2010-11-14, 02:06 PM
First off every day should be opt out day on the "naked body " scanners. but the We, before Thanksgiving is the official day. The media is now picking up on this. Just go to Google & type in "National Opt out Day" & there will be many hits.
www.optoutday.com

emshighway
2010-11-14, 03:00 PM
Have fun with that.

coachrowsey
2010-11-14, 03:18 PM
EMS:
Thanks. We will:biggrin:

seahawks7757
2010-11-14, 06:15 PM
Not to sound rude but this is a horrible idea on one if the busiest days, want an easy solution? Don't fly. Take the train. No security for that

Gerard
2010-11-14, 07:04 PM
Not to sound rude but this is a horrible idea on one if the busiest days

I believe that is why they picked that day.
And it seems like the backlash against the scanners is growing.

seahawks7757
2010-11-14, 08:16 PM
True, but by flying you make the choice to do this. So you really it is you that makes the choice to put your self up to going through security, If you don't want to go through it then don't buy a plane ticket and don't don't fly commercially then. That is where it is really your choice.

SDRivers
2010-11-14, 08:20 PM
Now is why im really happy im flying on the 22nd to PHX. :cool:

Gerard
2010-11-14, 08:38 PM
True, but by flying you make the choice to do this. So you really it is you that makes the choice to put your self up to going through security, If you don't want to go through it then don't buy a plane ticket and don't don't fly commercially then. That is where it is really your choice.

FRom what I am reading it seems like the big problem is actually not with the scanners but the rude, inconsiderate and arrogant TSA people who conduct the "enhanced pat downs" when you opt out. Aggressive fondling and touching seems to be a big problem. And seriously I might just lose it if I see some idiot doing that to my 16 year old daughter or my wife!!

mirrodie
2010-11-14, 09:36 PM
Not to sound rude but this is a horrible idea on one if the busiest days, want an easy solution? Don't fly. Take the train. No security for that

Until the next attack is on a train, subway or bus. That is the problem with security. hindsight is 2020


True, but by flying you make the choice to do this. So you really it is you that makes the choice to put your self up to going through security, If you don't want to go through it then don't buy a plane ticket and don't don't fly commercially then. That is where it is really your choice.

I have to respectfully disagree. CHOICE is a relative term. Often times, getting from point A to point B requires air travel, hence choice is non existent.


Have fun with that.

I was thinking of getting a tattoo, identically on my tummy and on my back, that says "TERRORISTS AND THE TSA CAN SUCK MY..." with an arrow pointing down.

Seems like an ideal use of freedom of speech.


FRom what I am reading it seems like the big problem is actually not with the scanners but the rude, inconsiderate and arrogant TSA people who conduct the "enhanced pat downs" when you opt out. Aggressive fondling and touching seems to be a big problem. And seriously I might just lose it if I see some idiot doing that to my 16 year old daughter or my wife!!

Should make for a nice lawsuit. I already predicted the underwear bomber just a day after Richard Reid. When will we see the first charges of sexual assault?

NIKV69
2010-11-15, 02:25 AM
This whole scanner thing is a bunch of BS. Who gives a rip who sees your genitals? You realize the government is trying to keep flying safe? The pat downs are a disaster but we wouldn't need them if everyone just walked through the scanner.

If you don't want them then you all better warm up to the fact people are going to die because without this level of security AQ is going to get one past them and bring a plane down. I don't get the opposition to wiretapping and these scanners you think these people care what you say? Or are going to remember what your boobs look like after seeing thousands upon thousands a day?

This opt out day is just more smoke and mirrors and giving the poor people that have to put up with the flying public more of a hard time. Give it a break.

emshighway
2010-11-15, 08:35 PM
FRom what I am reading it seems like the big problem is actually not with the scanners but the rude, inconsiderate and arrogant TSA people who conduct the "enhanced pat downs" when you opt out. Aggressive fondling and touching seems to be a big problem. And seriously I might just lose it if I see some idiot doing that to my 16 year old daughter or my wife!!

If you Opt Out of the AIT you are subject to a standard pat down. The standard pat down has changed, the hand held metal detector is no longer used and as such there is more hands on to detect smuggled items.

Can you give me an example of when a TSA Officer was rude, inconsiderate or arrogant to you? It is their job to do a standard pat down if you Opt Out, it isn't their choice. Do you really think they want to pat down the variety of passengers that come through many of which need hygiene lessons.

Do you understand that the pat down is same sex? Trust me, no one is eager to touch your wife or daughter. It is easy to say you will "lose it" and call people idiots sitting behind a keyboard just like the people on flyertalk.com.

I have been through the scanner and in the room viewing the images. The image is so filtered down you don't see a definition of genitals, breast or face. There is a general outline. There are also processes in place that the officer viewing the image and the passenger will never be able to see each other. The next software upgrade will get rid of the monitoring station and the image will be right at the machine. On the screen will be a stick figure with boxes around suspect items.

Do I particularly like the backscatter or millimeter wave machines? Not really, I would prefer to see the thermal imager which does not have the privacy issues. These machines are not certified yet and need some work.

On the 24th people who Opt Out will be subject to a pat down like every other day. If there are lines, the only people this will hurt is fellow travelers.

I will be glad to discuss the matter and give what information I can but understand the officers and personnel at the airports are doing their jobs per the Operating Procedures. If you want to change things you need to focus your efforts at DC.

Gerard
2010-11-15, 09:18 PM
Can you give me an example of when a TSA Officer was rude, inconsiderate or arrogant to you? It is their job to do a standard pat down if you Opt Out, it isn't their choice. Do you really think they want to pat down the variety of passengers that come through many of which need hygiene lessons.

Well if you read what I wrote I never said anyone was rude, inconsiderate or arrogant to ME. The quote was "From what I am Reading"....
Me, I have NO PROBLEM with going through the scanner. I could give two craps what someone sees who I never will see again. But apparently there are LOTS of people who do for a variety of reasons including religious and moral grounds. And many people are not happy with the "pat downs". I'm not saying this is systematic with all TSA but all you need is a number of yahoos generating bad publicity and there is a problem.

Do you understand that the pat down is same sex? Trust me, no one is eager to touch your wife or daughter. It is easy to say you will "lose it" and call people idiots sitting behind a keyboard just like the people on flyertalk.com.

Of course I understand that. And yes it is easy to say I will lose it because I absolutely would if I see some jerk (delete idiot) being inappropriate with my daughter or wife. I dont care if he has a "Badge" or not. And dont be so quick to dismiss the people on flyertalk.com and other websites. There seems to be a backlash gaining momentum in this country. Good customer service goes a long way in allaying peoples concerns and halting this backlash.

emshighway
2010-11-15, 11:40 PM
So you are quoting what you read throughout your posting and taking it as fact. Have you gotten an emails from africa stating they need your help transferring money? I have been on Flyertalk for many years and have been called a pervert, shoe Nazi and worse and they know nothing what I do except Where I work.

Did you watch the video where the radio host had one of his workers claim to be handcuffed? Proven wrong and you could see she was being treated professionally. How about the recent incident at SAN? Was anyone rude, inconsiderate or arrogant to him? No, he started with "touch my junk and I'll have you arrested". Even after that they were professional with him. He is now getting his 15 minutes of fame.

An officer is not trying to be inappropriate with anyone. They are trained to perform the pat down a certain way and are tested yearly, trained weekly and should they were to do something inappropriate disciplined to the point of termination from a federal job. We pull video tapes daily and see more overreaction from persons out to prove their point than wrong doing on an officers side. People say they weren't told yet there are signs right in front of their faces and the officer is explaining the process.

The plain truth is if you divest properly and go through either the walk through metal detector or whole body imager and don't alarm you don't have an issue. Unfortunately the whole body imager is becoming the primary form of screening because the 1970s walk through metal detector just don't do the job anymore. The threat isn't guns or knives but explosives and the method of delivery has been in/under clothes (two females in Russia with explosives in their bra's and the "Christmas day bomber").

The customer service of trying to make sure people get to their destination safely is tough because everyone thinks they are the special ones. If I walked up to you, do you know who I am and what my intentions are? I love the question "do I look like a terrorist?". I can name a whole list of people who don't look like terrorist but are. As far as the elderly and children, who would you try to plant something on to get through? Proven numerous times it is elderly and children. I can tell you stories I can't write here.

As far as a bunch of yahoos, let's look at the news. How many cops, firefighters, sports figures and politicians are in the news on a daily basis for their wrong doings. Their whole groups don't get pegged as idiots or jerks but it is OK to do that for TSA personnel.

emshighway
2010-11-15, 11:49 PM
It didn't take too long to prove one of my points:
http://nycaviation.com/forum/threads/38458-Mexican-police-arrest-12-year-old-hitman?p=432721#post432721

Gerard
2010-11-16, 12:31 AM
As far as a bunch of yahoos, let's look at the news. How many cops, firefighters, sports figures and politicians are in the news on a daily basis for their wrong doings. Their whole groups don't get pegged as idiots or jerks but it is OK to do that for TSA personnel.

Mmmm, where did I write that ALL TSA are yahoos, idiots or jerks? Go back and READ what I did write. And where did I say I believe what I read on the websites as fact? But I understand your anger since it is your job and you take exception to people putting it down. I can respect that. But I also know you guys are developing a bad reputation and its getting national press and attention. Counter these allegations. Go on the offensive.
And FYI I have been doing a lot of flying the past three years and on every trip I have had no trouble with TSA here in the NYC area or out of state. But I havent flown since the new
scanners/pat downs have been in place or at least an airport they are in service so I have no experience with them. But I do see on TV News shows,in the papers and on the web tons of negatvity. Now whether its valid or not I dont know but it is turning into a PR nightmare.
Sorry if I offended you I didnt mean to do that and I totally see where you are coming from. I wouldnt appreciate it if someone critiqued my job on the web!!

T-Bird76
2010-11-16, 03:27 PM
Rather simply anyone complaining about his new procedure needs to drop it and get a life.... Try traveling over in Europe and in other countries where security is about 100 times more invasive and prying then here in the U.S. I have no issues with the body scanners and think it’s finally one of those pieces of technology that truly works to help secure from some real threats.

mirrodie
2010-11-16, 10:49 PM
EMS, its way too easy to get under your skin. I am prescribing you to have a glass of merlot before you post here...

or a 6 pack. :cool: I know you catch a lot of crap but in getting your point across, it seems you carry angst from elsewhere and unleash it here. But you have to admit that some every whacko flyertalker, there is a legitimate one, right?

In any event, and in all seriousness, I'll likely opt out. Truth is, with these scanners, what concerns me is not safety but the scan itself.

OUr government told us Agent Orange was safe.....too old an example?

Our government told us ground zero was safe to work in...more updated example. Point?

How can I trust a government to be honest about these scan's safety when we've been led down the wrong path before? Just saying.

Gerard
2010-11-16, 11:14 PM
In any event, and in all seriousness, I'll likely opt out. Truth is, with these scanners, what concerns me is not safety but the scan itself.
How can I trust a government to be honest about these scan's safety when we've been led down the wrong path before? Just saying.

Interesting how there are different thoughts of how safe the radiation dosage is....
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/292414

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60553920100106?pageNumber=2

So who does one believe?

Gerard
2010-11-16, 11:29 PM
Try traveling over in Europe and in other countries where security is about 100 times more invasive and prying then here in the U.S.

I flew to Italy last summer with a stop in Paris where we had to go through security again because we went to a different terminal and I didnt find it any more difficult than the US.
Coming home we flew out of Venice and the security at Marco Polo Airport was wonderful. One of the couples we were with, the husband had a C-Pap machine and the security people
there were very inquisitive about out but at the same time polite and understanding. And then when we landed at Charles DeGaulle we had to go through security again and once again
I found it no more invasive or prying than the US.
And BTW I was expecting the kind of security you alluded to but was pleasantly surprised with what I found.

emshighway
2010-11-16, 11:46 PM
http://www.wpix.com/videobeta/b1336ec2-e0a8-4bce-b1cf-5a450f78dea4/News/Mendte-Complaining-About-Airport-Security-

emshighway
2010-11-17, 12:07 AM
EMS, its way too easy to get under your skin. I am prescribing you to have a glass of merlot before you post here...

or a 6 pack. :cool: I know you catch a lot of crap but in getting your point across, it seems you carry angst from elsewhere and unleash it here. But you have to admit that some every whacko flyertalker, there is a legitimate one, right?

In any event, and in all seriousness, I'll likely opt out. Truth is, with these scanners, what concerns me is not safety but the scan itself.

OUr government told us Agent Orange was safe.....too old an example?

Our government told us ground zero was safe to work in...more updated example. Point?

How can I trust a government to be honest about these scan's safety when we've been led down the wrong path before? Just saying.

I just don't appreciate people reading things then rebroadcasting them as fact and not having first hand knowledge themselves.

I would say the percentage of normal to wacko on flyertalk has gotten very small.

Opt out is your choice but expect a pat down (or just fly any other airline but American at LGA :wink:).

I got you on the what government tells you, I was at the WTC and am now Vice-President of the World Trade Center Rescuers Foundation. I get direct test results on all radiation tests done by the technicians so I see the information from our own machines so I have first hand knowledge of the amounts of radiation. I wouldn't go through it if I didn't know it was safe. I don't drink the Kool-aid, I find out the facts for myself.

threeholerglory
2010-11-17, 12:42 AM
if not for nothing I'd proudly display my manhood for reasons of national security. Heck, I'd do it even if it wasn't for national security.

*gets another beer*

emshighway
2010-11-17, 01:04 AM
if not for nothing I'd proudly display my manhood for reasons of national security. Heck, I'd do it even if it wasn't for national security.

*gets another beer*

LOL, us Irish just say "it ain't no big thing" :biggrin:

threeholerglory
2010-11-17, 01:06 AM
Us Italians say it is :wink:

jerslice
2010-11-17, 01:19 AM
Imagine that, days of tension instantly diffused by Mike announcing he'd show the world his junk in the interests of national security. What have we as a nation come to... :wink:

NLovis
2010-11-17, 05:08 AM
This is where working for a cargo company comes in handy. No patdowns:cool: But the downfall is you can only go where they fly to so your stuck in some sort of commercial thing anyway.

emshighway
2010-11-17, 09:11 AM
Imagine that, days of tension instantly diffused by Mike announcing he'd show the world his junk in the interests of national security. What have we as a nation come to... :wink:

I think Mike will show his junk for any reason

Derf
2010-11-17, 09:26 AM
You can always rent a private jet...nobody is stopping you from doing that. If you do not like to fly commercial, don't. I do not like full body scanners, I do not like the idea of a pat down. I do not like diet coke and I do not like when Tommy gets mad. Can't we all just get along? If I have to fly commercial, I know what to expect and I will not gripe about....out loud that is!

megatop412
2010-11-17, 11:32 AM
"Percentage of normal to wacko"- that's perfect, I love that term. The normal-to-wacko ratio.

On a serious note, both sides of this issue obviously hold valid points. I constantly find myself flipping from one side(being outraged) to the other(telling myself to get over it). I don't want to be exposed to any more radiation than I have to anymore(I've already had 2 CT scans this year already), and I don't want to be patted down, but I also don't want to have to worry about some moron getting on my flight with bad intentions. My personal experience with TSA is that they have given me excellent customer service, each and every time, and I work in customer service so I know when someone's doing a crap job.

I think the thing that settles the issue for me is this: I'd rather do the pat down or the machine(if it is in fact not as dangerous as some say) instead of keeping the old metal detectors and some idiot with PETN stuck between his ass cheeks gets on my plane. See because then, I won't have the opportunity to punch the *******'s lights out. Once you hear the explosion and feel the aircraft decompress and break apart around you, you'll wish you had opted for the pat-down or the machine. Suddenly, whether or not a TSA agent having seen your junk just doesn't seem like a big deal anymore does it?

gonzalu
2010-11-17, 11:53 AM
My take... I think the scanners give off very little energy and only need to look at what bounces back so should not be enough to pass through you. That being said, what shows up on the screen is somewhat of every little boy's dream to look up a woman's dress and given human nature, there will be loads of voyeurism and sneering / snickers etc. Just human nature, plain and simple nothing you can do about it. Unless you have a Jewish Rabbi at the controls (and even that won't guarantee it) it will be a huge invasion of privacy, even if I consent to it. Even my doctor asks me to put on a robe after I disrobe LOL. Through the same technology minds that invented back-scatter scanners, they can find a way to not "show soo much detail"

Personally I prefer a pat-down when a female TSA is doing the pat-down LOL. Not fun with a male TSA officer. I mean, one can at least enjoy the pat-down.. .can't really get "in to it" when it is just one sided hahaha.

I also second the statement about professionalism. On my last 10 trips I have had a great experience through the scanners/pat-downs/searches etc. Never a problem... always told what they are about to do, always ask if it is ok.

Now think of the famous Seinfeld episode: "Shrinkage" :tongue:

And on a final note

emshighway
2010-11-17, 11:00 PM
My take... Through the same technology minds that invented back-scatter scanners, they can find a way to not "show soo much detail"

These machines have gone through testing and modifications for several years. I went down to the FAA/TSA labs in Atlantic City in 2003 and saw these machines. I viewed full open settings and the filters in place now are significantly different and protect privacy as much as possible while still being effective. There have been many photos on different websites that have been proven to be photoshopped to give people the false sense of what is being seen. Like I have said before the image is basically a chalky blob (for me more blob than chalky).

The pat downs are now what they should have been from the beginning. You only get patted down to resolve an alarm so if you divest properly there shouldn't be much worry. The amount of people actually being patted down has actually decreased. Better technology and a more educated traveler have contributed to that.

Gerard
2010-11-17, 11:24 PM
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/tsa_head_defends_airport_body_scanners_nS7oFcIPW21 7hsyEGwfA0N

mirrodie
2010-11-17, 11:43 PM
EMS, if I got a tattoo, do they show on the scans? Does ink show?


In retrospect I would guess no since its pigment and the scans cannot give an indication of color, right?


Also, Im still siding with opting out for my children's sake. honest question, how do you pat down an 18 month old that can barely sit still?

Also, how are these scans doe on infants and toddlers? The kids like to move so....how is that done on those kids?

Idlewild
2010-11-18, 11:24 AM
I remember getting my first MANDATORY pat-down back in '79, when I was 13 and flying BA from LHR to JFK. It was done, if I remember correctly, by a female London Police Officer. It was non-invasive, although I wish it was because she wasn't bad looking at all, and it went quick. It's my opinion, that if the local county and/or city, supplies their police officers at the gates, officers who have a keen sense of street knowledge, instead of what's perceived as a hiring frenzy and kids walking around in National Guard garb and automatics, these security lines would be safer, quicker and more acceptable.

gonzalu
2010-11-18, 11:34 AM
EMS, if I got a tattoo, do they show on the scans? Does ink show?


In retrospect I would guess no since its pigment and the scans cannot give an indication of color, right?

I don;t think so but they CAN ... With backscatter, it is simply a matter of adjusting the intensity of the beam and the sensitivity of the receiver. At work, X rays and Gamma rays are used all the time (medicine) and I can tell you GE and Siemens have REALLY GOOD sensors and I have seen them being clinically trialed here. There is a dermatology scanner being tested to detect microscopic sub layers of the skin to detect small skin cancers before they spread. They can dial in microns in 3D from the surface to the bone if they wanted to... all in color and 3D. The sensor is still small, about 2 1/4 inch but they expect to make it bigger. This one is not backscatter but it can be as I have been told.

The ink in Tattoos are radioactively different enough from clear skin to make it visible from surrounding tissue.

emshighway
2010-11-18, 01:49 PM
Also, Im still siding with opting out for my children's sake. honest question, how do you pat down an 18 month old that can barely sit still?

Also, how are these scans doe on infants and toddlers? The kids like to move so....how is that done on those kids?

Children are exempt

emshighway
2010-11-18, 01:51 PM
I don;t think so but they CAN ... With backscatter, it is simply a matter of adjusting the intensity of the beam and the sensitivity of the receiver. At work, X rays and Gamma rays are used all the time (medicine) and I can tell you GE and Siemens have REALLY GOOD sensors and I have seen them being clinically trialed here. There is a dermatology scanner being tested to detect microscopic sub layers of the skin to detect small skin cancers before they spread. They can dial in microns in 3D from the surface to the bone if they wanted to... all in color and 3D. The sensor is still small, about 2 1/4 inch but they expect to make it bigger. This one is not backscatter but it can be as I have been told.

The ink in Tattoos are radioactively different enough from clear skin to make it visible from surrounding tissue.

Nope, ink doesn't show up. At least my ink didn't show.

emshighway
2010-11-18, 07:11 PM
TSA Enhanced Pat Downs : The Screeners Point Of View (http://boardingarea.com/blogs/flyingwithfish/2010/11/18/tsa-enhanced-pat-downs-the-screeners-point-of-view/)


http://boardingarea.com/blogs/flyingwithfish/2010/11/18/tsa-enhanced-pat-downs-the-screeners-point-of-view/

Gerard
2010-11-18, 11:16 PM
Airports Consider Congressmans Call To Ditch TSA

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=12185121&page=1

mirrodie
2010-11-19, 10:45 AM
Children are exempt? Is that then only a few day old policy? There was a youtube video of a 3 year old throwing a fit when being patted down so is this a very new change in policy?


Also, if I keep my kids out of a scanner and they are exempt from a patdown, doesnt that open up a security risk? It blows the entire concept of security out of the water. It simply does not seem logical.

mirrodie
2010-11-19, 10:47 AM
Also, I meant to add the following. Now, I HATE this woman. But this is the FIRST time I have ever agreed with her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w7sMjFiGp4

NIKV69
2010-11-19, 02:06 PM
You are all missing the point here. All of these issues work together. Does profiling work? Of course but it doesn't catch everyone looking to do bad to us. Profiling alone won't keep us safe, full body scanners doesn't catch everyone. Coulter is way off here. If we started aggressive profiling AQ would just change tactics and begin to recruit women or some other diversion. They are always changing to adjust to our measures and we have to adjust as well. Walk through the scanners and stop whining. Nobody is going to post a picture of your xrayed body on youtube. Jeez.

Spunker
2010-11-19, 03:02 PM
Very interesting post. I've enjoyed reading the responses. On my first trip to Europe, I was quite taken aback after arriving at Schiphol Airport to see fully uniformed and heavily armed soldiers patrolling the corridors. I do however feel the US Government and TSA are going beyond what they should be allowed to do. I don't feel any safer flying because of them. Yes, it is your individual choice to fly as opposed to other transportation means but we should not be made to feel degraded by our choice. We really don't have to just put up with it.

Perriwen
2010-11-19, 07:14 PM
Am I the only one who doesn't see the big deal over the scanners? From the images I have seen, it's a very skeletal, almost corpse like image, I can't see anyone even wanting to keep looking at something like that. Much less getting off to it. Plus, isn't it less radiation than getting an x-ray from a doctor?

mirrodie
2010-11-20, 10:24 AM
Plus, isn't it less radiation than getting an x-ray from a doctor?


Highly suspect and debatable. I recall reading that a scan takes 20 seconds. I went to the dentist last week and it was a 1 second long scan per image.

Effects on the body are cumulative, just like smoking. One cigarette does not kill you, its the constant exposure to it that can have deliterious effects. 20 seconds per scan on each flight.....there is no math on that and I doubt EMSHighway could support data otherwise.



Nik Perriwen and others, for the record, I couldn't care les about TSA Joe seeing my junk. Heck, I'll whip it out and rest it on a table for everyone to have a look (enter magnifying glass jokes here).


The simple fact is that the technology may affect the body. And I dont feel comfortable knowing how the gov was wrong in Agent Orange, 9-11 dust and I am sure other examples could be cited.


Legistators can wax poetic about the safety but hte majority of these guys use private jets and never expose themselves to the nonsense.

emshighway
2010-11-20, 10:58 AM
Children are exempt? Is that then only a few day old policy? There was a youtube video of a 3 year old throwing a fit when being patted down so is this a very new change in policy?


Also, if I keep my kids out of a scanner and they are exempt from a patdown, doesnt that open up a security risk? It blows the entire concept of security out of the water. It simply does not seem logical.

The video is about three years old, notice the white shirt on the TSO. The child alarmed the WTMD, that's why she needed to be screened. There have been more training for screening children.

Does anything seem logical? That's why we have so much uproar. Everyone wants security except when it comes to them.

emshighway
2010-11-20, 11:08 AM
Also, I meant to add the following. Now, I HATE this woman. But this is the FIRST time I have ever agreed with her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w7sMjFiGp4

God, I don't think I would ever agree with Bill O'Reilly. The ACLU jumped all over profiling after 9/11. It has been proven you can't look for the person that looks like a terrorist because there isn't a cookie cutter description.

emshighway
2010-11-20, 11:16 AM
Plus, isn't it less radiation than getting an x-ray from a doctor?


Highly suspect and debatable. I recall reading that a scan takes 20 seconds. I went to the dentist last week and it was a 1 second long scan per image.

Effects on the body are cumulative, just like smoking. One cigarette does not kill you, its the constant exposure to it that can have deliterious effects. 20 seconds per scan on each flight.....there is no math on that and I doubt EMSHighway could support data otherwise.



Nik Perriwen and others, for the record, I couldn't care les about TSA Joe seeing my junk. Heck, I'll whip it out and rest it on a table for everyone to have a look (enter magnifying glass jokes here).


The simple fact is that the technology may affect the body. And I dont feel comfortable knowing how the gov was wrong in Agent Orange, 9-11 dust and I am sure other examples could be cited.


Legistators can wax poetic about the safety but hte majority of these guys use private jets and never expose themselves to the nonsense.

The scan doesn't take 20 seconds, the whole process of the scan and reading it does. One scan equates to 10 minutes at altitude. I have the data, I get the data, I read the data. If I didn't think it was safe I wouldn't be going through it myself.

I would rather see the Thermal scanners being used and hopefully down the line they will. It will get rid of the radiation and privacy problem. They are just not there yet.

emshighway
2010-11-20, 01:33 PM
OUr government told us Agent Orange was safe.....too old an example?

Our government told us ground zero was safe to work in...more updated example. Point?

How can I trust a government to be honest about these scan's safety when we've been led down the wrong path before? Just saying.

Sorry, I meant to answer this earlier. I think this situation is different than the Agent Orange and Ground Zero in the fact that front line people have the information here. We get the radiation test results, we talk to the technicians working the machines. In the other incidents the military said the defoliant was fine and the EPA just lied.

We are able to see the figures first hand and trust me with the amount of people who have the info if there was a problem, there would be whistle blowing. We have independent agencies come in and do studies on the radiation from the baggage and checkpoint screening equipment and the technicians run radiation tests monthly.

NIKV69
2010-11-20, 02:08 PM
God, I don't think I would ever agree with Bill O'Reilly. The ACLU jumped all over profiling after 9/11. It has been proven you can't look for the person that looks like a terrorist because there isn't a cookie cutter description.

Not only that but it's not fail safe. The Times Square bomber is a perfect example of a terrorist that becomes one later in his life and on paper looks like a peaceful naturalized citizen. Yet when he began to become radical it was too late and would have never been on our radar. Profiling will find the obvious individuals but many can still avoid detection by a number of means which is why we need the last line of defense at the gate.

megatop412
2010-11-20, 02:34 PM
So I tried the "If you touch my junk..." line on my girlfriend only I changed the ending to "I'll have you arrested for assault with a sexy weapon" and it worked very,very well. No video on what happened next though.

Sorry, I didn't want to start a whole new thread just for that. Seriously, though, this thing's still in the teething stages and I'm sure when the dust settles we may see some compromises- they already dropped the requirement for pilots so who knows?

emshighway
2010-11-20, 02:34 PM
Not only that but it's not fail safe. The Times Square bomber is a perfect example of a terrorist that becomes one later in his life and on paper looks like a peaceful naturalized citizen. Yet when he began to become radical it was too late and would have never been on our radar. Profiling will find the obvious individuals but many can still avoid detection by a number of means which is why we need the last line of defense at the gate.

Yep, when I'm asked "do I look like a terrorist?" my answer is always "what does a terrorist look like?"

emshighway
2010-11-20, 02:48 PM
http://famousdc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/tsa.jpg

hiss srq
2010-11-20, 03:53 PM
Damn, I just posted that

emshighway
2010-11-20, 07:22 PM
they already dropped the requirement for pilots so who knows?

No we didn't, Pilots are exempt from the AIT only, they have been all along. The pilot in Tennessee wasn't flying the plane, he was a passenger so subject to screening as every one else.

Before you post a link to a news article about pilots showing two forms of ID to get past screening it isn't true. It is something the unions put out.

emshighway
2010-11-20, 07:23 PM
Damn, I just posted that

:tongue:

MarkLawrence
2010-11-20, 08:25 PM
:tongue:

LMFAO - those are awesome EMS!!!

emshighway
2010-11-21, 01:07 AM
Oh Boy.... :rolleyes:


http://www.facebook.com/#!/video/video.php?v=468623653117

coachrowsey
2010-11-21, 05:35 AM
Video has been taken down, however National Opt Out Day is one day closer & TSA here is worried about it. They've already had meetings over it.

NIKV69
2010-11-21, 08:38 AM
Why are they worried? They aren't the ones traveling. I would just sit there and watch all the travelers just sit in the airport all day and marvel at the grid lock. If they are going to do something stupid and bring the busiest travel day let em.

megatop412
2010-11-21, 09:47 AM
No we didn't, Pilots are exempt from the AIT only, they have been all along. The pilot in Tennessee wasn't flying the plane, he was a passenger so subject to screening as every one else.

Before you post a link to a news article about pilots showing two forms of ID to get past screening it isn't true. It is something the unions put out.

I never posted any link, not sure what you mean there, unless you meant it as a comment to posters in general.

I do however remember reading that pilots had to go through the machines and pat-downs like everybody else. If the news media screwed that up, that's ****ty journalism on their part. It brings to light the whole "who is telling the truth anymore" problem in news. Anyway, thank you for clearing that up for me :cool:

emshighway
2010-11-21, 10:53 AM
:rolleyes:
Video has been taken down, however National Opt Out Day is one day closer & TSA here is worried about it. They've already had meetings over it.

Which video? There are always meeting before big travel days to make sure airport, airlines and TSA are communicating. I'm sure there are several meeting and conference calls about the 24th.

emshighway
2010-11-21, 10:55 AM
I never posted any link, not sure what you mean there, unless you meant it as a comment to posters in general.

I do however remember reading that pilots had to go through the machines and pat-downs like everybody else. If the news media screwed that up, that's ****ty journalism on their part. It brings to light the whole "who is telling the truth anymore" problem in news. Anyway, thank you for clearing that up for me :cool:

Sorry, it was a preemptive general comment so someone didn't link to an untrue story.

Gerard
2010-11-21, 10:56 AM
Which video?

The one you posted from Facebook.

jerslice
2010-11-21, 01:40 PM
That video is on the front page of our site now: http://nycaviation.com/2010/11/video-tsa-shows-its-sexy-side-in-new-commercial/

emshighway
2010-11-21, 02:08 PM
The one you posted from Facebook.

It's working on my FB page, I took the video right after it aired. This one is much better.

Art at ISP
2010-11-21, 03:42 PM
As Chairman of a Frequent Flyer Advocacy Group, I have just made a blog post regarding the new "enhancements". You can read it below-the title is "Find Another Way".

Having followed the controversy surrounding the TSA's new "enhanced" screening procedures, and the very vocal public response to them, we think it is apparent that the message being sent to the TSA from most Americans, the flying public, and members of Congress to the TSA is definitely "Find Another Way"....and FFOCUS agrees completely!

In taking another look at the new policies and the incidents to which they are a response, I have made some interesting observations:

The shoe bomber who tried to ignite his shoe in flight boarded his flight in Paris, NOT in the United States.

The so-called underwear bomber boarded his flight in Amsterdam, NOT in the United States, after connecting from somewhere in the middle east.

Note - neither of these attempts originated here - meaning that just maybe the planners of these attacks realized that American security was already good and would likely detect such devices. So WHY are we being subjected to these "enhancements"?

This would be a great time to examine the methods used by Israeli security teams screening passengers in Israel. They rely more on "soft" methods such as behavioral observation and interviewing all passengers during the check in and screening process. We have heard from more than once source that such attackers would likely have been detected if such screening were permitted. Note they are not referring to racial profiling of any type, but BEHAVIORAL observations. There is certainly a difference.

The recent agreement to exempt airline pilots from such screening can be interpreted a number of ways...and not all good for the TSA. Does it open a possible door for a potential attacker? What other safeguards would replace the "enhanced" screening? Why couldn't these methods be adapted for the general public? At the least, perhaps this concession by the TSA gives reason to believe their new policies are not as well thought out as they claim, and could give some support to a number of lawsuits by regular travelers. Who knows?

With regard to the body scanners or Nude-O-Scopes as they are called by some, where is the ACTUAL test evidence of the radiation exposure to passengers? Such testing should be conducted by a third party, NOT the government, and should be released forthwith...but health hazard or not, we have already seen abuses of this technology, such as images being retained and saved.

And what is the truth behind Michael Chertoff's involvement with the company who sold the scanners to the TSA? Is this a backroom sweetheart deal or what? If so it should be investigated thoroughly.

At the worst, these new "enhanced" screening measures do not appear to make us safer, and the TSA's argument that they do is not fully proven, but they do cause further disruption of air commerce, meaning at the end of the day it is a victory of sorts for the enemy. It is time for the TSA to rethink these procedures, work on viable alternatives which do not compromise our safety or security, and do the right thing while keeping us safe. And Congress should in fact look into this more closely and mandate change if necessary.

We are not sure what will come out of the protest or National Opt Out event scheduled for this Wednesday, but it is sure to direct attention at the issue...

Time to Find Another Way!

emshighway
2010-11-21, 04:35 PM
In taking another look at the new policies and the incidents to which they are a response, I have made some interesting observations:

I will try to give you my personal, unofficial comments as someone with knowledge of the situation. Some will be just the answers without personal opinion. Others will have my personal opinion. Just because I say something doesn't mean I absolutely agree with it.


The shoe bomber who tried to ignite his shoe in flight boarded his flight in Paris, NOT in the United States.
The so-called underwear bomber boarded his flight in Amsterdam, NOT in the United States, after connecting from somewhere in the middle east.

Note - neither of these attempts originated here - meaning that just maybe the planners of these attacks realized that American security was already good and would likely detect such devices. So WHY are we being subjected to these "enhancements"?

True these incidents happen over seas but there is the Intel and possibility of it happening here thus the enhancements.


This would be a great time to examine the methods used by Israeli security teams screening passengers in Israel. They rely more on "soft" methods such as behavioral observation and interviewing all passengers during the check in and screening process. We have heard from more than once source that such attackers would likely have been detected if such screening were permitted. Note they are not referring to racial profiling of any type, but BEHAVIORAL observations. There is certainly a difference.

The Israeli methods are done on a much smaller scale than in the US. There are only a few commercial airports as opposed to the 430 in the US. It can be easily controlled in Israel and the airports were designed for these measures. In the US checkpoints have been shoehorned into archways, hallway and basically anywhere they could be stuck.

I think the Israeli methods should be deployed and some have but it won't go without even more backlash.


The recent agreement to exempt airline pilots from such screening can be interpreted a number of ways...and not all good for the TSA. Does it open a possible door for a potential attacker? What other safeguards would replace the "enhanced" screening? Why couldn't these methods be adapted for the general public? At the least, perhaps this concession by the TSA gives reason to believe their new policies are not as well thought out as they claim, and could give some support to a number of lawsuits by regular travelers. Who knows?.

You do know that the only thing that will change (for now) is that pilots are exempt from the AIT. They were already exempt since they are allowed to keep their shoes on as long as they don't alarm. They will still be going through the WTMD and if they alarm a pat down will be performed. The pilot who refused in Tennessee was not flying the plane but was a passenger and as such was subject to the screening of every other passenger. Anyone who passes through the checkpoint is screened. Perhaps the method for flight crews should be to check in at their operations area and go to the plane through an operational door. Some of the problems are the airlines operational areas can only be gotten to by going through the checkpoint. How can you just let a person who has an airline uniform on just walk passed a checkpoint? It does open the door for a potential attacker to just get a uniform.


With regard to the body scanners or Nude-O-Scopes as they are called by some, where is the ACTUAL test evidence of the radiation exposure to passengers? Such testing should be conducted by a third party, NOT the government, and should be released forthwith...but health hazard or not, we have already seen abuses of this technology, such as images being retained and saved.

The backscatter has been in testing for at least seven years that I know. I first saw it in the labs in 2003. I see the maintenance contractors field radiation test but I do agree if it will aid to relieve concerns they should release independent studies. The only place images can be retained are the machines in the lab. None of the field machines have this capabilities and no one in the field can change the settings.


And what is the truth behind Michael Chertoff's involvement with the company who sold the scanners to the TSA? Is this a backroom sweetheart deal or what? If so it should be investigated thoroughly.

Agreed, it should be investigated.


At the worst, these new "enhanced" screening measures do not appear to make us safer, and the TSA's argument that they do is not fully proven, but they do cause further disruption of air commerce, meaning at the end of the day it is a victory of sorts for the enemy. It is time for the TSA to rethink these procedures, work on viable alternatives which do not compromise our safety or security, and do the right thing while keeping us safe. And Congress should in fact look into this more closely and mandate change if necessary.

The comment of if the pat downs make you safer not is an opinion. The threat has moved away from the effectiveness of a 1970 WTMD technology and unfortunately the only methods right now are a body scan and or physical search. There have been some of us pushing for the increased study of the Thermal Body Scanners. They do not emit energy toward the passenger, they do not "see through" clothing so while they perform similar functions of the AIT they do not have the issues. Unfortunately they are not to the point of being certified yet.

Methods are constantly being looked at by the TSA and adjusted for the threat. For some this looks like inconsistency. Being able to adjust to the threat is not inconsistency. Congress has mandated procedures the TSA uses but they also mandate the limit of 43000 TSOs while adding more responsibilities (Ticket Document Checking, Behavioral Detection Officers and MTA screening) while not increasing the workforce to properly staff the checkpoints. When you see only a few lanes open it isn't because we don't want to open them up, we just don't have the personnel.


We are not sure what will come out of the protest or National Opt Out event scheduled for this Wednesday, but it is sure to direct attention at the issue...

Honestly I think it will just cause more pain to fellow passengers. This is a protest at the front lines. The front lines do not make the policies, they just do their jobs.


Time to Find Another Way!

It is always time to find better ways.

coachrowsey
2010-11-21, 04:38 PM
Art:
Right on. TSA MUST find another way. I worked today & just happen to witness one of these things & it's beyond disgusting. I had to leave before I saw any more.

Some one from the local TSA told me they are worried about opt out day. And while I know this is a minority, I know people who plan on going through at least twice Wed to tie them up. They are either going to set off the alarm "by accident" of course or "forget" something in their car.

Art at ISP
2010-11-21, 05:50 PM
EMSHighway,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. While you do give a good counterpoint, there are some issues on which we will agree to disagree. In any case, I do appreciate your point of view, and I do thank you for respecting mine and those other reasonable objections to the new procedures.

Thanks for what you do - but we maintain things need to change.

NIKV69
2010-11-21, 07:20 PM
"Find Another Way"....

Propaganda statement. How do you propose we screen pax then? No matter how good you profile or interview (which is impossible due to # of pax that travel) Scanners are our best last line of defense. Until someone can invent something that detects explosives in people without being evasive.

If the FF of the world want us to go back to the metal detectors and prayer fine but somewhere down the line a plane will come down and people will die and then people are going to wonder how a terrorist got on with explosives and then we can tell them we didn't want somebody to see our genitals.

emshighway
2010-11-21, 07:30 PM
EMSHighway,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. While you do give a good counterpoint, there are some issues on which we will agree to disagree. In any case, I do appreciate your point of view, and I do thank you for respecting mine and those other reasonable objections to the new procedures.

Thanks for what you do - but we maintain things need to change.

I don't mind having intelligent conversations and respect points of views that don't degrade to name calling or blaming the line personnel (if it's not their fault).

Art I do have some bad news for ISP... They are coming... Can't say when but they will be there.

Art at ISP
2010-11-21, 07:58 PM
I don't mind having intelligent conversations and respect points of views that don't degrade to name calling or blaming the line personnel (if it's not their fault).

Art I do have some bad news for ISP... They are coming... Can't say when but they will be there.

Yeah I know, it's inevitable until something changes...and there's no guaranty anything will.

coachrowsey
2010-11-21, 08:35 PM
The lead story on NBC nightly news was the new gropes at the airports & how we are fed up with them. Pissy is running scared & said they might change. Can't remember exact wording, but he said things are evolving. Even Mrs Clinton said she wouldn't want to go through this. Again I also took away from it that he is very much worried about Nat. opt out day.

mirrodie
2010-11-21, 10:46 PM
You are all missing the point here....Walk through the scanners and stop whining. Nobody is going to post a picture of your xrayed body on youtube. Jeez.

Nick, is it possible you may also be missing a point? Who cares about the pics, its the safety of the tech I question.


God, I don't think I would ever agree with Bill O'Reilly. .. It has been proven you can't look for the person that looks like a terrorist because there isn't a cookie cutter description.

True, Tim McVeigh is the everyday example. AS for O"reilly, I can't say I usually agree.


I have the data, I get the data, I read the data. If I didn't think it was safe I wouldn't be going through it myself.

I would rather see the Thermal scanners being used and hopefully down the line they will. It will get rid of the radiation and privacy problem. They are just not there yet.

I appreciate your badge of safely but I remain skeptical. Art brought up some valid points that I suspected as well.

I'm just glad that I got some great days experiences flying before 9-11. Even had some great ones after 9-11. But lately, it just gets worse and worse.

emshighway
2010-11-21, 11:26 PM
The lead story on NBC nightly news was the new gropes at the airports & how we are fed up with them. Pissy is running scared & said they might change. Can't remember exact wording, but he said things are evolving. Even Mrs Clinton said she wouldn't want to go through this. Again I also took away from it that he is very much worried about Nat. opt out day.

I have met Mr. Pistole (please use his correct name, you are on NYCAviation not Flyertalk, OK Coachy :eek:) and I don't see him as one to run scared. Would you want to have Mrs. Clinton go through it? The TSO at the monitor would probably scratch their eyes out :smile:.

emshighway
2010-11-21, 11:29 PM
I appreciate your badge of safely but I remain skeptical. Art brought up some valid points that I suspected as well.

I'm just glad that I got some great days experiences flying before 9-11. Even had some great ones after 9-11. But lately, it just gets worse and worse.

Understandable. Here are the websites of the two companies making the Thermal Scanners:

http://www.isconimaging.com/
http://www.thruvision.com/Our_Products/Our_Products_Overview.htm

NIKV69
2010-11-22, 11:33 AM
its the safety of the tech I question

I doubt the people that designed these things would have signed off on them if they emitted dangerous levels of radiation. It's another propaganda statement designed to take our eye off the ball.


I think the Israeli methods should be deployed and some have but it won't go without even more backlash.



EL AL's security is impossible at American airports. It would cost too much and take too much time. EL AL demands you get to airport much earlier than we have to now and you talk about liberty you realize they check your entire background? People are crying about someone seeing a x-ray image of their breasts but would allow someone knowing details of their whole life. Jeez.


I'm just glad that I got some great days experiences flying before 9-11. Even had some great ones after 9-11. But lately, it just gets worse and worse

Worse than your flight exploding at 37,000 feet? I will take a scanner any day.

coachrowsey
2010-11-22, 11:34 AM
I have met Mr. Pistole (please use his correct name, you are on NYCAviation not Flyertalk, OK Coachy :eek:) and I don't see him as one to run scared. Would you want to have Mrs. Clinton go through it? The TSO at the monitor would probably scratch their eyes out :smile:.
EMS, I don't want to anyone to have to go through one of these unless there is some compelling reason. IMO the terrorist have already won here. If the terrorist get to the airports some one has already screwed up. The stupid stuff just needs to stop. These people are laughing their arses off at us.

emshighway
2010-11-22, 12:35 PM
EMS, I don't want to anyone to have to go through one of these unless there is some compelling reason. IMO the terrorist have already won here. If the terrorist get to the airports some one has already screwed up. The stupid stuff just needs to stop. These people are laughing their arses off at us.

Terrorist won a long time before 9/11. You are not going to eliminate every terrorist but you can try to prevent them from carrying out their acts. It is a multi-layered approach.

mirrodie
2010-11-22, 02:55 PM
I doubt the people that designed these things would have signed off on them if they emitted dangerous levels of radiation.

Nick, its so basic....even for a dental x-ray that takes a second, you get a lead lined protective tarp to put on. Yet these new scans are safe. Always question tech.

I'll choose to remain skeptical rather than believe everything I see. Until then, Art's response is dead on.

It's another propaganda statement designed to take our eye off the ball.

By whom?

Worse than your flight exploding at 37,000 feet? I will take a scanner any day.

So now the scanners are going to stop all flights from exploding at 37K feet? Thats a leap...

Enjoy the rads. I'll opt out as I have zero problem with people wanting to feel me up. I can handle it, its no different than club hopping.


Terrorist won a long time before 9/11. You are not going to eliminate every terrorist but you can try to prevent them from carrying out their acts. It is a multi-layered approach.

It is indeed. BTW I appreciate the thermo link but they lead to tsa sign in sites.

NIKV69
2010-11-22, 04:51 PM
So now the scanners are going to stop all flights from exploding at 37K feet? Thats a leap...

Enjoy the rads. I'll opt out as I have zero problem with people wanting to feel me up. I can handle it, its no different than club hopping.



Any sort of scanning or pat down gives you a better chance of catching a terrorist than not having it. I wouldn't mind the pat down either but unfortunately we are the minority and the 24 hour news cycle has run with it to the TSA is screwed and our safety will be compromised in the name of liberty.

Zee71
2010-11-22, 06:04 PM
Here is my solution to scanners and pat downs.........when traveling get a pair of slightly oversized pants, and dress comfortable. Underneath your oversized pants put on a bathing suit or for the hell of it speedos!!! When you get to the x-ray machine take everything off except the bathing suit and of course your ticket. Walk through when the TSA agent waves you on and smile..........let's see what TSA does about that!!!!!

seahawks7757
2010-11-22, 07:00 PM
I love it mark, might do that late one night when there is no line lol.

emshighway
2010-11-22, 07:43 PM
It is indeed. BTW I appreciate the thermo link but they lead to tsa sign in sites.

Now they don't.

emshighway
2010-11-22, 07:58 PM
Here is my solution to scanners and pat downs.........when traveling get a pair of slightly oversized pants, and dress comfortable. Underneath your oversized pants put on a bathing suit or for the hell of it speedos!!! When you get to the x-ray machine take everything off except the bathing suit and of course your ticket. Walk through when the TSA agent waves you on and smile..........let's see what TSA does about that!!!!!


There are a few videos on YouTube of that being done already.

emshighway
2010-11-22, 07:59 PM
Best quote I've see so far:

"Don't TSA Me Bro"

NIKV69
2010-11-24, 01:09 PM
Opt out day a bust so far, can't say I am surprised.

coachrowsey
2010-11-24, 01:16 PM
Opt out day a bust so far, can't say I am surprised.

WRONG. I'm getting many reports that NOS lanes are closed at many airports & pat downs today are not invasive & clerks are actually being nice to people.(My phone is beeping off the wall with texts from those at the airports )

NIKV69
2010-11-24, 01:48 PM
WRONG. I'm getting many reports that NOS lanes are closed at many airports & pat downs today are not invasive & clerks are actually being nice to people.(My phone is beeping off the wall with texts from those at the airports )

They were being nice before, I can't see the pat downs being any different and the TSA announced they would cut down on the # of random pat downs. Still no gridlock since many are just going through the scanners like they should in the first place out of a need to get through as fast as possible while being screened as best we can.

coachrowsey
2010-11-24, 01:53 PM
They were being nice before, I can't see the pat downs being any different and the TSA announced they would cut down on the # of random pat downs. Still no gridlock since many are just going through the scanners like they should in the first place out of a need to get through as fast as possible while being screened as best we can.

Wonder why they cutting the number of random pat downs:rolleyes:

NIKV69
2010-11-24, 02:14 PM
Wonder why they cutting the number of random pat downs

Giving into the fringe what else? The same fringe that will demand people's jobs when someone slips through due to preserving our "liberty" You have weakened us to prove a point. Shame. Not to mention opt out day was supposed to be people refusing to go through the scanners which clearly has not happened.

MarkLawrence
2010-11-24, 02:39 PM
Not to mention opt out day was supposed to be people refusing to through the scanners which clearly has not happened.

I think that some people realized they might miss their flights - and - heaven forbid - turkey! :) I agree that so far it's a bit of a bust - but - busiest time hasn't happened yet - wait until 4:30 or so onwards...then it would be interesting to see what happens.

coachrowsey
2010-11-24, 03:25 PM
From various sources & reports from the airports, it looks like NOOD is becoming a National no fly day. I'm getting reports of lots of empty seats on what should be full flights. Maybe the airlines will take notice.

On a side note last night Tues according to our computer the US system load factor 80% Monday night 83% & I recall many days much higher loads.

NIKV69
2010-11-24, 03:51 PM
Maybe the airlines will take notice.



Of what? That thanks to this foolish propaganda people are driving and not flying? Great job. When the bag fees and surcharges go up we can all rejoice.

Gerard
2010-11-24, 07:23 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/11/24/2010-11-24_new_yorker_strips_to_underwear_for_laguardia_se curity_wanted_pat_down_to_stand_u.html

emshighway
2010-11-24, 07:45 PM
I was at the checkpoints all day yesterday and today. Spending most of my time at the American Checkpoint where the AIT is at LGA. Based on the direct numbers taken for the WTMD and AIT the number of Opt Out was only 1% which is the normal. While there were some lines at AirTran and Delta, wait times never exceeded 20 minutes. People were very complimentary and there were a few who went through other lanes and came behind to watch the AIT in action and pat downs who commented they didn't see what the big concern was.

We did have one person who came through American in a T-Shirt and shorts but he didn't go the AIT and didn't alarm the WTMD so he didn't need to be patted down so the most he did was get himself on TV.

AITs were not closed unless during a tour change. Air Travel is said to be in a 3% increase. All planes were full out of LGA.

There is no reduction of random pat downs.

coachrowsey
2010-11-25, 04:59 AM
Deleted by me.

Regardless of thoughts & differences on the day & topic, I wish all of you & your families a happy & safe Thanksgiving.

mirrodie
2010-11-25, 10:26 AM
Rockwood was weak. shoul d have come in sppedo and shirtless.

emshighway
2010-11-25, 11:42 PM
Rockwood was weak. shoul d have come in sppedo and shirtless.

Wouldn't have made a difference.