Aircraft down in Hudson being reported

[DHG750R]

Just heard a some some sort of accident over the Hudson, sounds like possibly 2 aircraft involved. Some reports of debris found on the Hoboken NJ side ... still developing

[Mateo]

Now saying a midair between a helo and a GA plane.

[moose135]

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-be ... 90622.html (http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Helicopter-Goes-Down-in-Hudson-River-52790622.html)


Chopper, Small Plane Go Down in Hudson River
Plane, chopper collide over river
Updated 12:43 PM EDT, Sat, Aug 8, 2009

A helicopter and a small plane collided over the Hudson River near 14th Street and the West Side Highway, the NYPD and the Coast Guard have confirmed. Both aircrafts ended up in the water near Pier 40.

The helicopter was from Liberty Tours. Six people were on board. The small plane originally left from Pennsylvania. It stopped at Teterboro Airport in New Jersey to pick up one more person and then departed, police sources said.

It's not clear how many people were on board the plane. One person has been pulled from the water so far. The condition of that person -- and the others -- is unknown.

[Matt Molnar]

At least one dead according to police.

[moose135]

From WNBC, the aircraft was N71MC, a Piper PA-32R Cherokee Lance, a single-engine, six seater, registered to a Pennsylvania address. Later versions were called the Saratoga (which is the aircraft JFK Jr. was lost in).

[coachrowsey]

I'm sorry to read of this, haven't had news on today.

[fly.mcs]

Any registration yet on the helicopter?

My condolences to those lost and to their families ..

[emshighway]

Per Mayor Bloomberg News Conference:

Helicopter:
Liberty Tours
A3 Star 50 - 5 Italian Tourists
Took off from West 30th Street Heliport, headed west the turned South

Plane
Piper PA-32R Cherokee Lance
3 passengers (one child) aboard
Took off from Teterboro, was heading South.

2 bodies recovered, no survivors found

One aircraft found, unknown if it is helicopter or plane.
Stated plane hit right rear of helicopter.

[Matt Molnar]

Re: chopper... Bloomberg says 5 tourists + 1 pilot. Total would be 9 with plane pax.

"This is not going to have a happy ending like the Airbus where everybody survived." -Mayor Bloomberg

[emshighway]

Bloomberg initially said 7 but the reports now are 5 so yes the total count is nine.

[NIKV69]

Jeez FOX has a close up of live events and it sure looked like a body being pulled out of the river.

[Gerard]

Terrible news. That part of the Hudson is self-announce on 123.050 and if you have ever been down their listening
the tour helicopters are always broadcasting their location and sadly many "weekend warriors" dont. The fixed wing
departed Teterboro enroute to Ocean City, Md. One scenario has the fixed wing coming east to the Hudson from Teterboro to head across the Harbor and fly south along the coast. A good possibilty he was never on 123.050, maybe talking to EWR or Departure and the bright sun shining directly into his cockpit blinded him. At a news conference Mayor Bloomberg said a fellow Liberty pilot on the deck at W30St saw the plane coming at the copter and tried in vain to warn his co-worker.

[NIKV69]

Wow, FOX has eyewitnesses on live in the studio and they took incredible pics of the collision.

[Gerard]

Wow, FOX has eyewitnesses on live in the studio and they took incredible pics of the collision.

Holy smokes they are really amazing!!! Especially the ones of the two aircraft in the same pic plummeting to the water seconds after the incident!!!
Hope those people dont get screwed out of the rights for those pictures.

[coachrowsey]

Fox news just said no one survived. This is horrible. Prayers sent.

[MarkLawrence]

Ohhh...so sad...our prays go to the families as well..

[coachrowsey]

Looks like right wing severed from acft.

[wunaladreamin]

The plane was N71MC, and the helo was N401LH.

RIP.

[NIKV69]

FOX will have family that snapped the pictures of the collision on in a few for those who haven't see them. They are riveting.

[moose135]

The plane was N71MC, and the helo was N401LH.

RIP.
Sadly, I shot N401LH two years ago arriving at the Wall Street Heliport
http://www.jetphotos.net/img/2/0/7/0/31108_1184472070_tb.jpg (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6019792)

RIP

[Matt Molnar]

If you haven't seen it yet, NYCA friend runway27r from Philly caught a shot of the Piper on a much happier day about a year ago.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3185/2660185690_32c7336ea4.jpg

Also, NYCA'er Futterman was blogging the events, more updates soon...
:arrow: Plane and Helicopter Collide Over the Hudson, Nine Believed Dead (http://nycaviation.com/2009/08/08/harrowing-ga-collision-on-the-hudson/)

[moose135]

WNBC-TV used Paul's photo on the 6pm news.

[runway27r]

I'm being swamped with emails & phone calls for usage. I gave the rights in print in the NYC area to the Post. They are paying. :borat: I did not give permission to any network TV, but......

I was out at PHL and got home and found emails from Fox, ABC & NBC, after seeing it on ABC.

It will also appear in the Star Ledger, which was OK with the Post.
Sorry it had to be such tragic circumstances.

And they didn't find it on A.Net :shock:

Paul

[moose135]

NTSB is briefing right now. Another Liberty Helicopter pilot was at the heliport and witnessed the crash. He said the helicopter was heading southbound, and the Piper closed on it from behind. He radioed a warning to the chopper pilot, but received no response prior to the Piper hitting it from behind.

[fly.mcs]

Back in April my family came from France to visit NY and we all took a tour on N130RU with Liberty. My first time in a helicopter, my father was terrified ..it was a very enjoyable flight. So sad this one turned out the way it did.

[PhilDernerJr]

Very sad to hear.

We wil probably see some drastic changes to the airspace around Manhattan, with this on top of what we saw a few years ago with Corey Lidle.

Any links around to those photos of the crash?

RIP.

[wunaladreamin]

Very sad to hear.

We wil probably see some drastic changes to the airspace around Manhattan, with this on top of what we saw a few years ago with Corey Lidle.

Any links around to those photos of the crash?

RIP.

http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05/gallerie/esteri/incidente-hudson/1.html

[PhilDernerJr]

Wow. Look like Circle Line helped out a little there.

Anyone know if all are recovered?

[moose135]

Anyone know if all are recovered?
No, three have been recovered, from the NTSB briefing it was two adults and the child. The helicopter has been located and marked, and one body has been spotted in that wreckage. The recovery operation ended for the night and will resume in the morning.

[Gerard]

>We wil probably see some drastic changes to the airspace around Manhattan, with this on top of what we saw a few years ago with Corey Lidle.i<

I hope we dont see kneejerk reactions to this very tragic accident but I do know from listening and hearing from helo pilots
flying on the Hudson corridor that their biggest worry is what happened today, fixed wing pilots unfamiliar with the area and
not utilizing their radios and monitoring the 123.050 frequency and not paying attention. I would think the biggest change
would be having ATC (LGA or EWR) controlling the whole airspace on the Hudson. But I can also see the anti-helicopter/aviation
zealots grabbing onto this and making a lot of noise. Thankfully Mayor Mike is a helo/fixed wing pilot and he wont let these
people bully him. Listening to the so-called experts on Fox and CNN today made me cringe. But listening to Mayor Mikes news
conference was like a breath of fresh air.

[Futterman]

FOX has acquired photos of the actual crash. Not for the faint of heart: http://www.foxnews.com/slideshow/U.S./2009/08/08/midair-collision-hudson-river?slide=2

I'm also a little jealous of Miles O'Brien and his excellent article about the visceral reactions we're all expecting. Beware the Aviation Demagogues (http://trueslant.com/milesobrien/2009/08/09/beware-the-aviation-demagogues/)

Brian

[Gerard]

>I'm also a little jealous of Miles O'Brien and his excellent article about the visceral reactions we're all expecting. Beware the Aviation Demagogues (http://trueslant.com/milesobrien/2009/08/09/beware-the-aviation-demagogues/)<

Excellent article so on the money. Thanks.
Anyone have the over-under when Rep. Anthony Weiner conducts his first anti-aviation news conference?

[Delta777LR]

I took pictures of N401LH while I was by the park near the W. 30th St helliport back in May. Here,

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o37/sergair/IMG_0986.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o37/sergair/IMG_0985.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o37/sergair/IMG_0965.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o37/sergair/IMG_0952.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o37/sergair/IMG_0933.jpg

[cancidas]

as saddened as i feel for the families of those that lost thier lives in this accident i can't help my feel wary over the days to come. phil, you said that we might see changes in the hudson river exclusion the way we did in the east river after the cory lidle accident. i expect to see our great and wise senator me. schumer use all his aviation experience and know-how to demand the closure of this exclusion once more... (we may even hear about small airplanes "packed" with explosives again.)

murphy has a law, it states that amateurs are dangerous, because professionals are the predicatable ones. when i was discussing this with a few CALSTAR pilots yesterday that is where our conversations ended up. as someone who flies the harbor daily, and the hudson river a few times a year i can safely say i've seen my share of strange maneuvers and even a few "what the &*$# is he doing?!" moments. there is a CTAF in place for a reason. i sure hope that both crews were on it and using the frequency to announce thier intentions. otherwise, we just have a very expensive reminder of how negligence can kill.

[Mateo]

Anyone have the over-under when Rep. Anthony Weiner conducts his first anti-aviation news conference?He's not the Mayor-in-waiting anymore, so maybe he'll tone down the grandstanding, although I'm not optimistic. It's recess, so if we're lucky, he's on a Codel somewhere, safely away from any TV cameras.

[moose135]

The FAA has issued a TFR (http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_9_3459.html) around the crash site, one mile radius, surface to 1,000 MSL, to keep unauthorized traffic away.

[PhilDernerJr]

FoxNews has a homepage photo of a bodybag being loaded up onto a boat. :(

[Planesntrains]

It was reported by CNN another deceased was recovered this afternoon. Not sure of time or location. This is such a sad mess. These things never have to happen. I'm sure it will open up a can of worms over the VFR Corridor also.

[moose135]

MSNBC is reporting that the Army Corps of Engineers recovered the wreckage of the helicopter from the river this morning, and NYPD reports that sonar has spotted the wreckage of the Piper, in two locations, near the site of the helicopter wreckage.

[Gerard]

The story of the Italian woman and her son "Just missing" be on that flight is media generated BS. Sure she had tickets but they were not for a specific time or aircraft. In fact the 5 tourists who died were family friends and wanted to fly together which, sadly, worked out as 401LH seats 5 plus pilot. Mom/son would have been on another ship.
Just so much bad reporting on so many levels.
And recently in the discussion about the two news copters that had a mid-air the topic of "situational awareness" was brought up. Be aware of what is happening around you.
Last year also in Arizona two EMS copters enroute to a hospital had a mid-air on a weather day like yesterday.
And how about the private pilot who got lost in JFK airspace a few weeks ago and buzzed by commercial aircraft. Now that could have been ugly.
Yesterdays incident sounds like a tragic case of a lack of situational awareness.
OK off my soapbox.

[cancidas]

And recently in the discussion about the two news copters that had a mid-air the topic of "situational awareness" was brought up. Be aware of what is happening around you.
situational awareness doesn't only apply to EMS and news helos. it's a lesson every single pilot should learn, the earlier the better. lose that, and lose your life as one of my IPs used to say.

[BigAppleCoder]

This is certainly a tragedy for the people on the two aircraft and I don't wish to dismiss the victims family's suffering. However, I'm unhappy to see that this accident has resulted in knee jerk reactions in calls for regulation of the VFR corridor over the Hudson River. The New York times quoted Sen. Schumer as saying the '"virtually unregulated” flight traffic over the Hudson a safety and security risk. Wherever the investigation leads, he said, “the F.A.A., along with the N.T.S.B. and other relevant agencies, must take a long look at toughening up flight restrictions and monitoring of the Hudson River airspace in order to avoid another tragedy.”'
I personally believe that some people who dislike the noise of the air traffic along the river will use this tragedy to the best of their ability to try to restrict the VFR corridor. I'm happy that Mayor Bloomberg is a private pilot himself as he seems to be the only elected official that is not calling for a knee jerk closure. But it's going to take a big effort on the part of general aviation supporters to stave off these attempts.

[USAF Pilot 07]

situational awareness doesn't only apply to EMS and news helos. it's a lesson every single pilot should learn, the earlier the better. lose that, and lose your life as one of my IPs used to say.

It's probably the most important skill as a pilot to develop and something that has been beaten into me from day 1 of flight school. Staying ahead of the jet by always thinking two steps ahead, listening to the radios, and having good CRM are critical to maintaining good SA. SA only increases as you fly more and become more proficient in your airframe, but a major part of it is keeping good SA on the guys around you; so that when some other dude loses it, you don't get into situations like this..

[NIKV69]

FoxNews has a homepage photo of a bodybag being loaded up onto a boat.



That is nothing, during the live coverage of the hours after the collision FOX was zoomed in on a boat and they loaded one of those rescue stretchers with a body on the boat. The head and upper torso were in in plain view for at least 7-10 seconds. I know the pitfalls of live coverage with no delay but jeez.

[fly.mcs]

Most of you probably saw the helicopter pilot's photo on FOX News last night. Here is a link to an article from The New Zealand Herald:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=10589966 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10589966)

After watching the news, I am almost sure Mr. Clarke was the pilot of my Liberty Tours helicopter flight on 17 April 2009. Because I weighed the least of all passengers, I sat in the front with this gentleman. I recorded some video, and he appears in a few clips. It's truly sad.. will upload the video a bit later tonight and post a link.

[Gerard]

Good article in todays Daily News with an interview with the Liberty pilot who was on the deck at W30St and witnessed
the crash and called out to his buddy in vain. He echoes the sentiment many others voiced: pilots unwilling or having no clue to calling out their position in the corridor the majority fixed wing, weekend warriors.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/200 ... able_.html (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/08/10/2009-08-10_air_disaster_was_inevitable_.html)

[Gerard]

This is certainly a tragedy for the people on the two aircraft and I don't wish to dismiss the victims family's suffering. However, I'm unhappy to see that this accident has resulted in knee jerk reactions in calls for regulation of the VFR corridor over the Hudson River. The New York times quoted Sen. Schumer as saying the '"virtually unregulated” flight traffic over the Hudson a safety and security risk. Wherever the investigation leads, he said, “the F.A.A., along with the N.T.S.B. and other relevant agencies, must take a long look at toughening up flight restrictions and monitoring of the Hudson River airspace in order to avoid another tragedy.”'
I personally believe that some people who dislike the noise of the air traffic along the river will use this tragedy to the best of their ability to try to restrict the VFR corridor. I'm happy that Mayor Bloomberg is a private pilot himself as he seems to be the only elected official that is not calling for a knee jerk closure. But it's going to take a big effort on the part of general aviation supporters to stave off these attempts.

Oh they were ALL out today sticking their faces in front of the cameras. Thankfully Bloomberg is distancing himself from them. In fact
at HIS news conference he went out of the way saying how important it is for the city to allow helicopters to operate. The tour ships bring in revenue and the corporate ships are important to the big companies based in the city.

[Gerard]

Anyone remember the last mid-air in NYC between a copter and plane?
July 22, 1983

http://www.nypdangels.com/cop/cop.php?id=90

There was a huge media outcry after that also.

[fly.mcs]

Ut_4B8omtXM

My video with Liberty Helicopter Tours on 17 April 2009. Once again, I believe my pilot was Jeremy Clarke, although it is somewhat difficult to be sure due to the side-view & sunglasses ..but the hair, nose, and shaved beard seem to match. If this was indeed my pilot, once again, my prayers go out to his family. It was my first time in a helicopter and I never once felt nervous or uncomfortable.

[EDIT] I messaged a friend of Mr. Clarke, and he confirms this is him flying my helicopter flight :(

[PhilDernerJr]

Video from a boat of the rescue attempts right after the crash.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e0d_1249796465

[LGA777]

Michael, awesome video tribute my friend, very proffesional with beautiful videography in perfect light, a fitting tribute to the late Jeremy Clarke.

Regards

LGA777

[Gerard]

Is it just me or is the whole media and politicians totally biased against the helicopters and the helicopter tour industry?
And they make the pilot of the Piper to be some type of saint and tragic figure. Oh he was a good family man. Oh he
was a humanitarian using his plane for Angel Flight missions. Oh yeah, he smashed into the copter FROM BEHIND!! C'mon lets be fair here. Some of the articles in the News and Post about the copters really piss me off!!

[Matt Molnar]

Is it just me or is the whole media and politicians totally biased against the helicopters and the helicopter tour industry?
And they make the pilot of the Piper to be some type of saint and tragic figure. Oh he was a good family man. Oh he
was a humanitarian using his plane for Angel Flight missions. Oh yeah, he smashed into the copter FROM BEHIND!! C'mon lets be fair here. Some of the articles in the News and Post about the copters really piss me off!!
Any excuse for all the two-bit local pols to get some air time. Luckily they don't have much power to do anything.

[NIKV69]

Is it just me or is the whole media and politicians totally biased against the helicopters and the helicopter tour industry?
And they make the pilot of the Piper to be some type of saint and tragic figure. Oh he was a good family man. Oh he
was a humanitarian using his plane for Angel Flight missions. Oh yeah, he smashed into the copter FROM BEHIND!! C'mon lets be fair here. Some of the articles in the News and Post about the copters really piss me off!!




Yea I get this feeling too, not sure why. Tourism is a huge source of revenue for NYC and those tours are popular and create jobs! Isn't that what we want? I wouldn't be in a rush to make the Piper pilot out to be anything because by all witness accounts it sure looks like he shoulders a majority of the fault.

[ch2tdriver]

Is it just me or is the whole media and politicians totally biased against the helicopters and the helicopter tour industry?
And they make the pilot of the Piper to be some type of saint and tragic figure. Oh he was a good family man. Oh he
was a humanitarian using his plane for Angel Flight missions. Oh yeah, he smashed into the copter FROM BEHIND!! C'mon lets be fair here. Some of the articles in the News and Post about the copters really piss me off!!




Yea I get this feeling too, not sure why. Tourism is a huge source of revenue for NYC and those tours are popular and create jobs! Isn't that what we want? I wouldn't be in a rush to make the Piper pilot out to be anything because by all witness accounts it sure looks like he shoulders a majority of the fault.

As much as I hate to do this at this point, but seeing how others are not only speculating but going so far as to assign blame, I need to respond. As one who has flown the corridor both for pleasure and for a fixed wing Pt 135 operation, I have been following this tragedy closely and try to put myself in the situation in order to learn from it. Looking at the data available thus far, I don't see how one can put the blame on one pilot over the other when the actions of both pilots have presented links in the "accident chain". As the saying goes, break any link in the chain and the accident doesn't happen.

Link #1 is the Piper Pilots chosen path to enter the Hudson corridor. This NYT graphic based on the radar returns shows the route flown and altitude of both aircraft:

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2009/ ... ready.html (http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2009/08/09/nyregion/09crash_subgraphic_ready.html)

It is known that the Piper departed TEB Runway 19 straight out and was given the option to go southwest or over the river. He chose the river and was advised to contact EWR tower. This contact never took place. It is possible that he tried to make contact but did not get a response right away, or decided against contacting them. Whatever the reason it is clear that EWR Class D was coming up on him fast and he made the choice to steer clear as can be seen by the curve in his ground track toward the Hudson and then more southerly. This unfortunately placed him in the undesireable position of entering it at a 30-40 degree cut which in a low wing will effectively blocks out most of whatever is to the left (upriver) and below you. When departing TEB to the south I prefer to ask for a left crosswind departure and make a bee-line to the river. What that does is place you further up river (middle of central park) where the helo's rarely go, and allows you to enter the corridor at a 90 degree cut. You then can clearly scan up/down and left/right before entering. You also have been punched out by TEB by this point and are free to monitor CTAF on 123.05.

Link #2 is the Helicopter pilots choice of altitude. For fixed wing aircraft the regs specify the minimum altitude must be 1000' AGL over a congested area, else 500' AGL is the minimum (although no where is 'congested area' defined), and in any event the minimum must allow the pilot to reach a safe point of landing in the event of an engine failure. It is for this reason that 99% of fixed wing pilots will fly the route at 1000 to 1100' which of course is the ceiling of the corridor. Helicopter regs do not have these kinds of limits and they are practicaly free to fly at whatever altitude they choose. The graphic shows the collision occured at 1100'. The Piper pilot climbed to 1100' as was expected of him. Why was the helicopter at 1100'? Surely a tour pilot who flies the route numerous times a day would be familiar with the fixed wing altitude restrictions and would steer clear of them by flying much lower? Even if he was at 800' he would be legal and the accident wouldn't have happened.

I last flew the corrider in the spring. My student who passed his PPL checkride a few months before wisely called me to go with him on the hudson tour and instruct him on it. While fully legal to do it on his own he had no desire to. On that trip I used the system and it does work. I announced my positions and was impressed to hear the tour pilots replying directly to my calls. That is not something that generally happens on your typical UNICOM/CTAF. I would announce my intentions and get a response such as "Helo has the low wing Alarus in sight over the statue at 1000', we'll be orbiting the lady at 700' " I replied in kind. I have no doubt that both pilots in this tragic case were good at what they do. It just highlights how the most mundain decisions can have tragic results and how we all have to remember to be proactive.

Peter B.
Commercial ASEL/MEL Instrument Airplane CFI
N214LF

[PhilDernerJr]

Peter, excellent input. Thanks for sharing.

What you explained makes the airspace seem even more congested and challenging than at least I had originally realized.

Do you think that is what is currently in place should remain? What ammendments, if any, would you make?

[NIKV69]

Why was the helicopter at 1100'? Surely a tour pilot who flies the route numerous times a day would be familiar with the fixed wing altitude restrictions and would steer clear of them by flying much lower? Even if he was at 800' he would be legal and the accident wouldn't have happened.


What if the helo was already up there long before the Piper entered the airspace? I appreciate your credentials but is sure seems like you have a little bias toward fixed wing. Whether consciously or not. We will have to wait awhile for the NTSB's report but from all witness accounts it sure seemed like the pilot of the Piper was not aware of the traffic as he approached. Sure many like to mention the chain of event angle as a way to deflect blame but I think if we dissect every air disaster whether big or small it always comes down to one major error. The river is very congested and something has to change as far as controlling the air traffic but if you don't have a tower, don't have ATC controlling the situation you are at the mercy of the people flying and their ability to do the things that have to be done. Like control the aircraft, and keep visual serparation.

[Matt Molnar]

What if the helo was already up there long before the Piper entered the airspace?
The helo had just taken off, so probably not very long.

[NIKV69]

The helo had just taken off, so probably not very long.



Tru but in an uncontrolled congested space in a aircraft like the Saratoga (which has that longer nose than a Cherokee) you are blind to everything just below the nose. I am not trying to beat on the pilot of the piper. I just feel from what has been released so far he let his guard down just a little and didn't make a note of who was in the airspace for that second or two and when your flying a much faster aircraft you would be on that helo quick. Just my take on what happened by the info and pics that are out. In a crazy way this almost is the same as PSA 182. A much faster moving aircraft overtaking a slower one after losing sight of it. Only difference is that the Cessna deviated off the course it should have been on but goes to show that by being below the 727 (basically a blindspot) how something can happen so fast without chance of recovery.

[Tom_Turner]

If safety along the corridor can be "improved" - as determined by those "expert" in such matters - and with a good consensus of the participants, I suppose that would fine. I am a bit skeptical though of strict impositions placed on people in particular and the economy in general, of solutions that purport to "fix" such a low rate of mortality of those transiting the corridor, and even more unrealistically, those on the ground - in Manhattan, New Jersey, (and unbelievably now, even Staten Island according to one politician).

West Nile Virus, the Hudson River corridor etc etc.. these are not the big threats to our (believe it or not) transient lives.

These things rank probably somewhere below the inherent dangers of staircases, ice skating rinks, climbing trees to save cats, etc...

Just my 2 cents,
Tom

[PhilDernerJr]

Tom, you're right. But just because the manner of death was such a spectacle and in the spotlight, politicians try to jump in to capitalize.

[njgtr82]

That NYT link is not correct, I've seen the true radar replay and the collision was at 700 feet or so. I think the reason he made the sharp turn to the river was because of the 757 that was descending into EWR above him. The helo's will stay low down to the statue, then call Newark tower to enter the class B at 1500 ft. It really amazes me that this does not happen more often. Its not unusual to have ten aircraft within a 3 mile radius of the statue on a nice day all going different directions at different altitudes

[PhilDernerJr]

What modifications would you make to the airspace?

[Matt Molnar]

That NYT link is not correct, I've seen the true radar replay and the collision was at 700 feet or so.
They credit Passur as the source of that info, which is not always accurate.

[GrummanFan]

NBC just showed closeup home video of the accident...a but shaky, but its a decent shot until just after the collision occurs. Scary stuff.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Video-Captures-Hudson-River-Midair-Collision-Helicopter-Plane-53162997.html

[Gerard]

[quote="GrummanFan"]NBC just showed closeup home video of the accident...a but shaky, but its a decent shot until just after the collision occurs. Scary stuff.

WOW!!!!!!

[NIKV69]

Incredible, well it didn't rear end the helo it was about to hit it broadside and seems the pilot of the Piper saw him at the last second and tried a hard right. Seems like he almost made it and just clipped the rotor. Wow.

Here is another curve ball

http://www.nypost.com/seven/08132009/ne ... 184401.htm (http://www.nypost.com/seven/08132009/news/regionalnews/air_traffic_controller_was_on_the_phone__184401.ht m)

[MarkLawrence]

Whoaa...that is a curve ball Nick! Bill - you're a controller - what are the rules on things like that? I would think a definate no no to talk on a landline - unless it's official business right?

[emshighway]

The air traffic controller at Teterboro Airport was on the phone with his girlfriend during Saturday's deadly air collision over the Hudson River, the Daily News has learned.

His supervisor was nowhere to be found at the time.

Both have been suspended and will likely be fired.

Investigations by the National Transportation Safety Board and the Federal Aviation Administration revealed the two air traffic controllers, who were not immediately identified, had seriously deviated from their assignments at the time of the collision.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/200 ... z0O7EMFwVz (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/08/13/2009-08-13_air_traffic_controller__on_phone_with_girlfrien d__an_supervisor_suspended_over_h.html#ixzz0O7EMFw Vz)

[coachrowsey]

I think a position with TSA awaits them :lol:

[emshighway]

I think a position with TSA awaits them :lol:

Yea....right... :evil:

[Matt Molnar]

UPDATE

1. NBC reporting that controller's phone call may not have been as innocuous as previously reported...distraction might have prevented him from warning Piper pilot of an alert from Newark re: heavy Hudson traffic.

2. In July the single controller on duty at Teterboro on a graveyard shift accidentally locked himself out of the tower, leaving it unmanned for 45 minutes. He was able to call TRACON and tell them to handle his traffic, 3 flights were affected.

[NIKV69]

From the post article

FAA said in a statement released late Thursday there is no reason to believe that the controller's actions contributed to the accident. However, the agency said the phone conversation was inappropriate and such conduct is unacceptable.

Granted the TEB tower effed up but flying VFR you have to keep traffic in sight. Going to be interesting to see how much weight the NTSB puts on TEB ATC.

[LGA777]

The more I'm hearing now the more I think the suspended controllers at TEB may have had a bigger role in this than originally expected.

Now another coment I have been wanting to post. I was home at the time of the accident last Saturday and recieved a text something had happened only mins after the accident occured. What surprised me was that 1 hour after the accident only NY1 and FOX New Chanell where broadcasting live coverage. None of the other local stations or CNN had coverage. To me it seemed like a big enough story to warrent local live coverage by the big local news players, especially in light of the constant headline coverage it is still getting now almost a week later.

Regards

LGA777

[NIKV69]

None of the other local stations or CNN had coverage

CNN is easy, they have too much vested in Obama at this point and with the health care bill shaping up to be his demise they have really been covering nothing but that. I think after they saw how big story the mis air collision had become they carried live coverage.

[Matt Molnar]

Now another coment I have been wanting to post. I was home at the time of the accident last Saturday and recieved a text something had happened only mins after the accident occured. What surprised me was that 1 hour after the accident only NY1 and FOX New Chanell where broadcasting live coverage. None of the other local stations or CNN had coverage. To me it seemed like a big enough story to warrent local live coverage by the big local news players, especially in light of the constant headline coverage it is still getting now almost a week later.
I was wondering that myself. After laying off a bunch of people, combined with it happening on a Saturday afternoon in August when everyone is at the beach, I'm guessing the only people in the newsrooms were interns.

[Gerard]

>Now another coment I have been wanting to post. I was home at the time of the accident last Saturday and recieved a text something had happened only mins after the accident occured. What surprised me was that 1 hour after the accident only NY1 and FOX New Chanell where broadcasting live coverage. None of the other local stations or CNN had coverage. To me it seemed like a big enough story to warrent local live coverage by the big local news players, especially in light of the constant headline coverage it is still getting now almost a week later. >

I had just gotten out of the dentist when I heard about this on, of all stations, WCBS-FM. I switched to 1010 WINS and when I
walked (ran?) into the house the only station at 1PM with major coverage was FOX News.

[NIKV69]

I have to tell you even though I am a fan of FOX I always thought in the past their breaking news coverage sucked compared to MSNBC and CNN and always tuned in to them for major events instead of FOX. When it comes to Aviation incidents, car chases etc MSNBC and CNN were much better. I see that changing lately mostly I think due to the Obama factor and more so lately the health care debacle and Pelosi saying the most stupidest things which I feel CNN is trying to be apoligists for but FOX def was on top of this event. As far as Ratings FOX wins that hands down and doubt that will ever change so I wish they would improve their breaking news coverage.

[Tom_Turner]

The bulletin sure does seem to read that way.....



UPDATE

1. NBC reporting that controller's phone call may not have been as innocuous as previously reported...distraction might have prevented him from warning Piper pilot of an alert from Newark re: heavy Hudson traffic.

[NIKV69]

re: heavy Hudson traffic.

Wouldn't a pilot see this flying VFR? This is going to get ugly between the ATC union and NTSB.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090817/ap_ ... _collision (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090817/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_mid_air_collision)

[Matt Molnar]

NTSB has amended its report...


WASHINGTON (AP) - Federal safety officials investigating a midair collision over the Hudson River changed their account of the accident on a key point Monday, saying an air tour helicopter struck by a small plane wasn't initially visible on radar to an air traffic controller handling the plane.

The National Transportation Safety Board had previously said the controller failed to warn the plane's pilot of the potential for a collision with several aircraft in its path, including the helicopter, before handing off responsibility for the plane to another airport.

Nine people—three aboard the plane and five Italian tourists and a pilot aboard the helicopter—were killed in the Aug. 8 accident over a busy area of the river between New York and New Jersey.

The board now says in a statement released Monday that while the controller at Teterboro Airport in New Jersey failed to warn of several aircraft in the path of the single-engine Piper, the tour helicopter wasn't one of the aircraft on the controller's radar screen until seven seconds after the handoff to nearby Newark Liberty International Airport.

[emshighway]

The federal government is kicking the air traffic controller's union out of the investigation into the fatal midair collision over the Hudson.

The National Transportation Safety Board says the National Air Traffic Controllers Association has been improperly commenting about the investigation in the media. Normal procedure is for the NTSB to take the lead on media matters.

http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/ ... fault.aspx (http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/104211/ntsb-kicks-air-traffic-controllers-union-out-of-crash-investigation/Default.aspx)

[NIKV69]

Yep like I said it's gotten ugly and it's a shame but the ATC union is def circling the wagons here and the NTSB is playing hardball. It is far from over. IMO this controller really effed up but I can say he caused this. The timeline is tricky and he may not have seen that helo in time.

[LGA777]

Interesting read below, TEB Tower phone transcript highlights !

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32483581/ns/us_news-life

LGA777

[Matt Molnar]

Protip: Don't have idiotic conversations on recorded lines.

[Gerard]

That controller has more problems. I hear PETA is upset with him about the barbeque cat comment.

[moose135]

http://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/fe ... -1.1453036 (http://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/feds-pilot-in-hudson-collision-had-wrong-radio-frequency-1.1453036)


Feds: Pilot in Hudson collision had wrong radio frequency
September 16, 2009 By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

The pilot of a plane involved in a mid-air collision over the Hudson River read back the wrong radio frequency to an air traffic controller but wasn’t corrected by the controller, a federal safety official said Wednesday.

National Transportation Safety Board Chairman Deborah Hersman told a congressional committee Wednesday that shortly after the single-engine Piper took off from Teterboro Airport in New Jersey, a Teterboro controller handed off the plane to nearby Newark Liberty International.

During the handoff, the controller instructed the Piper pilot to contact Newark and gave him the radio frequency. However, air traffic control recordings show the frequency the pilot read back was incorrect, Hersman said. There is no indication that any controller heard the incorrect readback or attempted to correct it, she said.

Less than a minute after the incorrect readback, the plane collided with an air tour helicopter, sending both aircraft hurtling into the river. All three people aboard the plane and a pilot and five Italian tourists aboard the helicopter were killed.

A preliminary review shows the pilot never contacted Newark controllers, Hersman told the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee at a hearing on the accident.

Those controllers saw on radar that the plane was heading toward the helicopter, which was just taking off on the New York side of the river. They called the Teterboro controller and asked him to redirect the plane. The Teterboro controller twice tried unsuccessfully to contact the plane. Hersman said investigators are reviewing recordings for other air traffic frequencies in an effort to discover whether the pilot was trying to contact Newark on the incorrect frequency.

[PhilDernerJr]

This was only noticed now?

[mmedford]

This was only noticed now?

Hmm, wouldn't the NTSB power up the comm radios and check what freqs were dialed in?

[moose135]

This was only noticed now?
It was made public Wednesday during the hearing, they didn't say when they listened to the tapes and determined it.

[Matt Molnar]

I think they knew he was on the wrong freq. The incorrect readback, however, is a new detail, and probably will bring heat back on the controller who was chatting on the phone.

[Gerard]

I think they knew he was on the wrong freq. The incorrect readback, however, is a new detail, and probably will bring heat back on the controller who was chatting on the phone.

Controller and supervisor FIRED and new rules for the Hudson corridor.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... prove.html (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/11/16/2009-11-16_hudson_river_air_corrider_to_be_split_between_l ocal_and_express_zones_to_improve.html)

[NIKV69]

Hmm CBS news at 6 just said that report was not accurate and that the FAA have just recommended termination. I will keep an eye out for more links. No doubt the union will fight it.

[Gerard]

[quote="NIKV69"]Hmm CBS news at 6 just said that report was not accurate and that the FAA have just recommended termination.

What? the media got the info wrong? :o :o
No way!!! :lol:

[mmedford]

I don't think he is fired, I met the guy like 2 weeks ago...thats all I can say though...

[moose135]

What? the media got the info wrong? :o :o
No way!!! :lol:
No they didn't:

Nov. 16 (Bloomberg) -- The Federal Aviation Administration proposed firing an air traffic controller and supervisor on duty when a helicopter and airplane collided over the Hudson River in August, killing nine people. The two are appealing the decision, and no final determination has been made, said Laura Brown, an FAA spokeswoman. Randy Babbitt, the agency’s administrator, told reporters on a conference call earlier today that they had been fired.

Full Story (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aMx9fQ2weM9I&pos=9)
The FAA Administrator gave them the wrong information.