An ironic day for the U.S and Venezuela

[T-Bird76]

So today Venezuela nationalized their oil industry and today the U.S nationalized AIG....hmmm while the reasons are vastly different its very ironic and a sad day for Capitalism.

Is anyone else just really pissed off at the collapse of these financial systems? These are things we read about...its not something we should be living through. Our Gov't failed big time boys and girls and once again the American Taxpayer is stuck with the bill. Now I agree we needed to fund AIG at this point in time but where was the Gov't five years ago when these poor decisions were being made? So now that we are all owners of AIG do we get corner offices?

[Matt Molnar]

It gets better....it sounds like we're heading toward nationalizing our automakers, too. GM, Ford and Chrysler are begging the feds for a $25 BILLION loan to build "fuel efficient" vehicles, and it sounds like Congress is going to give the green light. These guys are just as bad as the subprime loan lenders...they pocketed tons of cash selling gas-guzzling SUVs without doing any planning for the possibility that gas wouldn't be $1.50 forever, and when the market for trucks tanked, they were screwed.

Who else wants a handout? Boeing? McDonald's? Sears?

[flyboy 28]

GM, Ford and Chrysler are begging the feds for a $25 BILLION loan to build "fuel efficient" vehicles, and it sounds like Congress is going to give the green light.

Yup. Just as the House approved the offshore drilling bill. http://www.simviation.com/yabbfiles/Smilies/2vrolijk_08.gif :roll:

[T-Bird76]

GM, Ford and Chrysler are begging the feds for a $25 BILLION loan to build "fuel efficient" vehicles, and it sounds like Congress is going to give the green light.

Yup. Just as the House approved the offshore drilling bill. http://www.simviation.com/yabbfiles/Smilies/2vrolijk_08.gif :roll:

That bill is a total joke to... It doesn't allow drilling where we need to be drilling and will probably fail in the Senate. I think its offical that our Gov't has totally stopped working for the good of the nation.

[mirrodie]

Well, Tom, let's flip the question.

If the Gov doesnt nationalize at least one of those companies, what are your alternative solutions?

[T-Bird76]

Well, Tom, let's flip the question.

If the Gov doesnt nationalize at least one of those companies, what are your alternative solutions?

I didn't say they shouldn't have but if there were watchdogs in place for the last few years this situation could have been avoided or minized to some degree. Mario we live in a Capitalist system, it is not the taxpayer’s duty to bail out or run these companies. What is taking place right now is classic mismanagement and the Gov't is playing fireman and putting out a four alarm blaze and we are getting burned.

Now GM, Ford, and Chrysler want 25 billion to help develop more efficient cars. Neither of those company's should be given a penny of our money.

[mirrodie]

And yet the capitalist system appears to have some pains its going through right now, nes pas?

Absolutely, yep, we are getting burned. Things SHOULD have been done. They weren't. So moving forward, if there are no other options, then all we can do is sulk.

Whoever is elected in November will ahve much on their hands. Problem with these campaigns is that they have yet to state specific solutions for the problems they face.

[NIKV69]

they pocketed tons of cash selling gas-guzzling SUVs without doing any planning for the possibility that gas wouldn't be $1.50 forever, and when the market for trucks tanked, they were screwed.



Funny but I don't think a gun is at any of our heads forcing us to buy them. It isn't the automakers responsibility to research gas prices. The prices are driven by demand, driven by our usage. None of the people I know that own an SUV need it for anything more than ego. They are paying twice the amount they should be for gas. If you are going to insist you have the right the drive an SUV then don't whine about the price of gas. Should we bail out automakers or banks. IMO no but I think in a way it had to be done at a critical time. If you want no government involvement in business it works both ways.



These guys are just as bad as the subprime loan lenders

How you figure? Subprime loan lenders preyed on these people. Knew going in the people were going to walk away from the house after 3 months when they couldn't afford it and made it so easy for them to get into the house with not a dime down. Automakers don't prey on people. Don't give away loans in fact it is much harder to get accepted for a car loan than a house.


I didn't say they shouldn't have but if there were watchdogs in place for the last few years this situation could have been avoided or minized to some degree

Can't, then your not a capitalist society your socialist. Like Obama is pitching with his health insurance company proposal. You can't meddle in how these companies do business. It was either let Lehman and AIG go down and risk the hit to the economy or help them. You can't interefere with how they conduct business because then you have government controlling business and that is not capitalism it is socialism. You can't have it both ways.


Problem with these campaigns is that they have yet to state specific solutions for the problems they face.
And yet the capitalist system appears to have some pains its going through right now, nes pas?

Absolutely, yep, we are getting burned. Things SHOULD have been done. They weren't. So moving forward, if there are no other options, then all we can do is sulk.

Whoever is elected in November will ahve much on their hands. Problem with these campaigns is that they have yet to state specific solutions for the problems they face.

What can they do? Can John McCain walk around with each and every one of us and make sure we use our credit wisely? Make sure that we make prudent decisions and not buy a house we have no chance of making the monthly nut? I can't believe how we blame Bush and the government for our problems. It is our fault we are in this mess. Then when the government does do something about it and helps AIG and Lehrman everyone jumps all over them. I like how JFK put it, "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"

Quit the bitching, buy more fuel effecient cars, conserve a little and don't max out your credit cards or buy a house you have no chance at paying for. You would be surprised how things would be a year from now. We wouldn't need windmills or electric cars or "nationalized" anything.

[Matt Molnar]

Funny but I don't think a gun is at any of our heads forcing us to buy them.
I didn't say people were wrong for buying them.


It isn't the automakers responsibility to research gas prices.The prices are driven by demand, driven by our usage.
Business 101 teaches you that you need to be aware of market trends before they happen. These aren't mom and pop stores, they have thousands of well educated, well paid marketers and analysts on their payrolls, they knew for years gas could spike on short notice, and they knew their overseas competitors were years ahead of them in building fuel efficient engines, yet nobody in charge said ..."hey guys, maybe we should get to work on a backup in case gas goes up and people don't want 13mpg trucks anymore."


How you figure? Subprime loan lenders preyed on these people.
Not in terms of how they treated their customers, but in how they failed to see any future negative repercussions of what they were doing.

[NIKV69]

Business 101 teaches you that you need to be aware of market trends before they happen. These aren't mom and pop stores, they have thousands of well educated, well paid marketers and analysts on their payrolls, they knew for years gas could spike on short notice, and they knew their overseas competitors were years ahead of them in building fuel efficient engines, yet nobody in charge said ..."hey guys, maybe we should get to work on a backup in case gas goes up and people don't want 13mpg trucks anymore."



But don't you see people still want trucks and SUVs that get far less than 13 mpg. We are a terrible as a nation when it comes to this. I work with a guy who leases these atrocities and his lease was up this spring. Plenty of warning of the impending gas surge. Did he buy a more economical vehicle? Of course not he bought the newer version of what he had. Car companies are in the business of selling vehicles not living our lives for us. Your going to tell me we couldn't have built more fuel efficient cars when countries overseas did? Of course we could, the fact is countries overseas have the discipline to switch and actually buy them where we don't. This is why we had fuel spike like it did and why we pay what we do.


but in how they failed to see any future negative repercussions of what they were doing.

More reason they should have been allowed to die as a business. When you sell anything cars, houses etc you are supposed to qualify the person sitting in front of you. Can they pay the loan? Can they afford this? If they are going to through that out the window just to make sales without thought as to consequences then your company deserves to go down the crapper when all the deals kick and houses get foreclosed on. Unfortunately this added to a perfect storm of other things that were effecting our economy and government stepped in at a very crucial time. If circumstances were different I would have supported letting them going belly up.

[mirrodie]

What can they do? Can John McCain walk around with each and every one of us and make sure we use our credit wisely?
Make sure that we make prudent decisions and not buy a house we have no chance of making the monthly nut? I can't believe how we blame Bush and the government for our problems. It is our fault we are in this mess. Then when the government does do something about it and helps AIG and Lehrman everyone jumps all over them.

Quit the bitching, buy more fuel effecient cars, conserve a little and don't max out your credit cards or buy a house you have no chance at paying for. You would be surprised how things would be a year from now. We wouldn't need windmills or electric cars or "nationalized" anything.

Nick, are you extrapolating again or just plain hallucinating? Where did I say that about McCain? And where did I blame Bush or mention that anyone did? :roll: Regardless of what you think, our government is the intercessor here and with a new government stepping in, it will have to face it.

You say its "our" fault its in this mess. Maybe its yours but its not mine. I drive a fuel efficient car, now more efficiently, conserve, excellent credit, and bought my house with room to take 5 vacas a year if I wanted to. And yet, as a taxpayer, yep, its affecting me. So perhaps you are OK with your next door's neighbors mortgage in default and thus screwing you ultimately, but I would be less than enamored.

Lastly, regardless of the economic climate today and the world's consumtion of energy, solar, windmills and electric cars, now alternative, are going to one day make oil the alternative. To state there is no need seems to illustrate ignorance or apathy.

[NIKV69]

I drive a fuel efficient car, now more efficiently, conserve, excellent credit, and bought my house with room to take 5 vacas a year if I wanted

Ok, I drive two fuel efficient cars, conserve, have excellent credit and take a 3 month vacation every year. Shall we whip it out next and see who's bigger? What does this have to do with anything?


You say its "our" fault its in this mess. Maybe its yours but its not mine

Mario, your smart enough to know that you and myself are in the vast minority. Majority of people, don't conserve, don't have good credit, buy outside their means etc. Yet their actions effect us all. I applaud your behavior but the fact is unless your behavior becomes the rule and not exception it isn't going to matter who is elected president.


Nick, are you extrapolating again or just plain hallucinating? Where did I say that about McCain?

Whoever is elected in November will ahve much on their hands. Problem with these campaigns is that they have yet to state specific solutions for the problems they face

Isn't McCain going to be one of two people elected in November? What exactly do you think either Obama or McCain should do? Truth is their actions alone can't help the situation. We have to fix what we have broken.


solar, windmills and electric cars, now alternative, are going to one day make oil the alternative. To state there is no need seems to illustrate ignorance or apathy.


Mario now you seem to be the one hallucinating. We are always going to need oil to some extent. Aircraft, trucks and the lilke will always need gas to operate. Conservation is a more realistic long term goal. Or something more a long these lines. Brian Appel a native Long Islander has been working hard something. Read this. Interesting stuff.

http://discovermagazine.com/2006/apr/anything-oil/

[bonanzabucks]

Ok, I drive two fuel efficient cars, conserve, have excellent credit and take a 3 month vacation every year. Shall we whip it out next and see who's bigger? What does this have to do with anything?

What kinda job do you have that lets you take three months off a year??

[mirrodie]

Ok, I drive two fuel efficient cars, conserve, have excellent credit and take a 3 month vacation every year. What does this have to do with anything?

What's this have to do with anything? They are your points, shown to be ineffective. Aren't you the one who said this below? This is what you proposed as the solution.


Quit the bitching, buy more fuel effecient cars, conserve a little and don't max out your credit cards or buy a house you have no chance at paying for.You would be surprised how things would be a year from now. We wouldn't need windmills or electric cars or "nationalized" anything.


Shall we whip it out next and see who's bigger?

Perhaps that is what what this thread really signifies for you. It's OK, you don't have to whip yours out though. The entire website knows how yours makes the A380 seem tiny.


Isn't McCain going to be one of two people elected in November? What exactly do you think either Obama or McCain should do? Truth is their actions alone can't help the situation. We have to fix what we have broken.

"We" as you put it aren't doing a thing. The feds are. And the feds and the government do work hand and hand. Hence the new administration will have some hand in the solution.


Brian Appel a native Long Islander has been working hard something.

Good read.