Unruly Family Booted From Southwest Plane

[Jordan Howell]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/07/07/dnt.family.off.plane.kiro?iref=videosearch"
Follow the link to watch the video.

I for one absolutely cannot stand unruly kids (or any unruly passengers for that matter) on planes. I completely support Southwest's decision to dump them off the plane in Phoenix, hell I would have been tempted to lock them in the lavatory if the little terds couldn't behave themselves! When I was a kid I didn't dare get out of line for I was always threatened that it would be off to military school. I swear I would pay atleast $200 extra for child free flights, I've even flown in first class before with rude kids in it. I guess your just not safe from obnoxious behavior anywhere on a plane anymore. I know that child free flights will probably never exist but the airlines should really consider limiting children to the last five rows of the plane that way those of us who would like to enjoy the flight can sit up front away from the rude kids and the rude parents who don't control their kids. I swear, this is the reason why I had a vasectomy as soon as I turned 18. It took a few trys to find a doctor who would approve it at such a young age, but I wanted to make damn sure I would never be burdened by children. I bet I have added atleast ten years to my life without all the worry and heartache that kids bring into your lives. Give me a fish any day.

[RDU-JFK]

It's always a huge debate--kids on planes. Yes, I admit I'm one of those passengers who gives that death stare to the family with a newborn baby or an infant who boards the plane and sits in a row close to me. One of the reasons I fly Delta is so that I can guarantee I get an exit row (I'm Medallion) so I won't sit next to a baby. However on several occassions they put babies in rows right behind or in front of exit rows. They should change this to provide people with an available cushion.

When I was a newborn baby or an infant my parents did not travel. Simple. It's way too much stress on the poor baby and the parents. When I was that age my parents simply didn't fly to go on a vacation, or if they needed to attend an important family event or something I stayed with relatives. Why is it necessary to take a newborn across the country? It was only when I was old enough (at least 3) that my parents flew with me. Same goes with dining in restaurants, but that's a separate story. When I was a little tike and I did fly, I was well-behaved. If I misbehaved or fidgeted I was disciplined appropriately and no problems occurred.

My thoughts:
-If its a newborn screaming baby its not the baby's fault. I should hope the baby's parents are only traveling with the kid for an extreme emergency or something along those lines--not to fly across the country to visit Cousin Ed. Let cousin Ed fly to visit you
-If its a toddler and they scream, shout, misbehave, or the like the blame is on the parents for not properly disciplining their kid.
-Older kids should know right and wrong and how to properly behave so blame the kids as well as the parents.
-Unfortunately I have flown with adults who have behaved FAR WORSE than the worst kid imaginable so let's not just make this a witch hunt against the kids!

I say they should "cushion" the 3 rows in front of and in back of the exit row for no kids under 4 to ensure some sort of peace and quiet...

[Gerard]

Not to make excuses but one of the kids was autistic and the other had cerebral palsy. That cant be easy even in your home especially the autistic child. I know people with autistic children and it is incredibly challenging to raise that child. Maybe the parents should have notified the
airlines/flight crew before boarding and something could have been arranged to make the flight go smoothly.
Jordan, enjoy your fish. Yeah kids can be (are, LOL) are pain in the ass. I know I was with my parents. But the love one experiences between a
child and a parent is something very special and wonderful. Sorry you feel the way you do.
Imagine if your father felt that way?

[Derf]

I have flown with my kids and never had a problem with them. It was NEVER easy and when I hear comments like Gerrards, I am glad I am not alone in feeling the way I do. As for the anti child flyers club posting here, if your views were normal, there would be airlines trying to ban children as a premium cost alternitive. Nobody likes a screaming child, but to say a child can not fly? hmmmm

[Matt Molnar]

The "pregnant sister" character looks like a hardcore meth addict, I wouldn't be surprised if she were the root of the problem. Also "Bobby Tucker, Grandmother." Wow. I feel bad for the kids, but I can imagine being anywhere near these loony toons would be hell for anyone.

[T-Bird76]

First off the entire cabin crew should be fired over this. Honestly it shows the lack of education it takes to be an FA. These children were mentally handicap and HAVE NO control over their behavior. Autistic children and CB patients have very little mental understanding of situations. Autistic children in particular get very nervous in environments they are not use to, so this isn't abnormal at all for them to be restless and IN NO way were they jeopardizing the safety of any other passenger, that is simply BS. I truly hope WN gets sued for this.

Now to address a thought...


-If its an infant, toddler and they scream, shout, misbehave, or the like the blame is on the parents for not properly disciplining their kid.

Let me first say this…if you were in-front of me right now I’d laugh in your face.

May I ask how do you discipline an infant?? Slap them perhaps? Cover their face so they stop crying? Hell they’ll stop breathing then!, that will solve the problem! That's called child abuse. An infant or toddler cannot logically reason right and wrong behavior in public settings, that part of their mind hasn’t developed yet. The main reason why most children cry during a flight is because of the pressure to their ears. Infants and toddlers are far more prone to pressure changes that can cause discomfort vs adults. That discomfort is more ampliefided in young children then it is in adults. Let me put your head in a vice grip…tell me if it hurts….


I know that child free flights will probably never exist but the airlines should really consider limiting children to the last five rows of the plane that way those of us who would like to enjoy the flight can sit up front away from the rude kids and the rude parents who don't control their kids.

You know while we’re at it let’s put Blacks, Hispanics, Mentally retarded, Robed Muslims, Hasidic Jews, Fat people, Gay couples, and any group that bothers someone else to the back of the plane. That way you can enjoy your flight….

Here’s an idea…instead of “gladly spending $200 bucks more for a child free flight.” Go buy yourself a pair of BOSE’s QC2 or QC3 Noise canceling headphones, I have the QC2s and they do a very nice job at cutting out having to hear morons sitting around me.

[Matt Molnar]

First off the entire cabin crew should be fired over this. Honestly it shows the lack of education it takes to be an FA. These children were mentally handicap and HAVE NO control over their behavior. Autistic children and CB patients have very little mental understanding of situations. Autistic children in particular get very nervous in environments they are not use to, so this isn't abnormal at all for them to be restless and IN NO way were they jeopardizing the safety of any other passenger, that is simply BS. I truly hope WN gets sued for this.
If it was just the children who were out of line, then yes, WN overreacted. But something tells me the adults involved were probably not much better than the kids.

[T-Bird76]

First off the entire cabin crew should be fired over this. Honestly it shows the lack of education it takes to be an FA. These children were mentally handicap and HAVE NO control over their behavior. Autistic children and CB patients have very little mental understanding of situations. Autistic children in particular get very nervous in environments they are not use to, so this isn't abnormal at all for them to be restless and IN NO way were they jeopardizing the safety of any other passenger, that is simply BS. I truly hope WN gets sued for this.
If it was just the children who were out of line, then yes, WN overreacted. But something tells me the adults involved were probably not much better than the kids.

WN's kicked ppl off for the dam shirts they wear. How come we don't hear this happening with other airlines? WN IMO is very overzelous with its cabin procedures.

[lijk604]

WN's kicked ppl off for the dam shirts they wear. How come we don't hear this happening with other airlines? WN IMO is very overzelous with its cabin procedures.

All this coming from a man who once loved SWA. :lol: Tommy, what you have to remember, is that people who fly on other carriers are not of the same clientel as those who fly on SWA. Where SWA can sell seats at $49 that most people can afford, the other carriers are charging 2-3 times that for economy tickets. Most of your low income travellers are not flying on those carriers, they take Southwest, and unfortunately, the stereotype fits in this scenario.

[Gerard]

>Here’s an idea…instead of “gladly spending $200 bucks more for a child free flight.” Go buy yourself a pair of BOSE’s QC2 or QC3 Noise canceling headphones, I have the QC2s and they do a very nice job at cutting out having to hear morons sitting around me.[/quote]<

Absolutely. I crank my ipod up with some good hard rock/metal tunes or sit back and enjoy a good movie on my portable DVD player.
BTW I've encountered more idiots daily on my LIRR commute than I ever had while flying.

[Gerard]

The "pregnant sister" character looks like a hardcore meth addict, I wouldn't be surprised if she were the root of the problem. Also "Bobby Tucker, Grandmother." Wow. I feel bad for the kids, but I can imagine being anywhere near these loony toons would be hell for anyone.

LOL gotta agree with this that the adults did look REAL shaky!! They said it was the kids first plane ride, I wonder if it was theirs also?

[RDU-JFK]

BTW I've encountered more idiots daily on my LIRR commute than I ever had while flying.

Amen. Substitute LIRR with Q Train on the subway.

[MarkLawrence]

My son, who is now 4 years old, has been on more trips on aircraft than a great deal of adults, and this includes 19 hours trips to and from South Africa. He, and a great deal of children that have been flying when I have been flying have in general been a whole lot better behaved and quieter than a lot of the adults that I have encountered - drinking in great excess, calling cabin and flight crew names that I cringe at my son hearing and asking what they mean, people generally feeling that they are owed everything for free and lots and lots of other cases.

If you have children - you prepare a little better - take their books and a whole lot of entertainment for them on the plane.

As for obnoxious people - they are in every day life as well - I remember when my son was about 2, we went to TGI Fridays and while he was in his high chair playing very quietly. The hostess came to seat another couple and when the guy saw my son, his comment was "Can we have another, I don't want to sit next to some loud kid". The hostess duly showed them to another table, at which point my wife said in a loud voice "Thank you - he probably didn't want to listen to you either". His wife was embarrassed - he didn't say another word.

So - before people start jumping all over children for being loud and messing up their flight, consider sometimes what us parents who have children that we do control have to put up with. We'll gladly accept moving their loud attitude to the 5 back rows of the flight as well!

[T-Bird76]

WN's kicked ppl off for the dam shirts they wear. How come we don't hear this happening with other airlines? WN IMO is very overzelous with its cabin procedures.

All this coming from a man who once loved SWA. :lol: Tommy, what you have to remember, is that people who fly on other carriers are not of the same clientel as those who fly on SWA. Where SWA can sell seats at $49 that most people can afford, the other carriers are charging 2-3 times that for economy tickets. Most of your low income travellers are not flying on those carriers, they take Southwest, and unfortunately, the stereotype fits in this scenario.

John the stereotype of the client that flys WN is totally without merit. There's no proof more lower income travelers fly WN over AA, DL, CO or US. WN is not the cheapest in ever market and often times their prices are higher. Lately I've found AA's prices to be marginally lower then WN's prices.

If you want to see some interesting passengers go to the AA terminal about 6 am and look at what's getting on those planes to the south. Far worse then anything WN has flying with them.

[mirrodie]

When I was a kid I didn't dare get out of line for I was always threatened that it would be off to military school. .... I've even flown in first class before with rude kids in it. ..I swear, this is the reason why I had a vasectomy as soon as I turned 18.

-Well, perhaps threats to military school can explain some the happy memories you have regarding childhood and your wanting to avoid kids.
-First class is a large seat and more space. It does not mean people with class sit there.
-Less than a dozen posts here and I know of your vasectomy? Too much information. Welcome to the site but perhaps a bit of discretion is warranted?



My thoughts:
-If its a newborn screaming baby its not the baby's fault. I should hope the baby's parents are only traveling with the kid for an extreme emergency or something along those lines--not to fly across the country to visit Cousin Ed. Let cousin Ed fly to visit you
-If its a toddler and they scream, shout, misbehave, or the like the blame is on the parents for not properly disciplining their kid.
-Unfortunately I have flown with adults who have behaved FAR WORSE than the worst kid imaginable so let's not just make this a witch hunt against the kids!


I do have to say it IS stressful to a degree. On a recent 4 hour trip with our 16 month old, I was carrying more gear through that airport than most soldiers heading overseas!

However my mindset is a bit different. We still dine at steakhouses and nice restaurants but choose to eat 430ish, when its still quiet. It allows us to teach him how to interact with others, how to behave but at a time when the restaurants are not super busy.

Likewise, we've staged our son's flights so far b/c we want him to be a seasoned flier. His first flight at 4 months was 3 hours; At 6 months, 1 hour; at 16 months, 4 hrs. Again, a child needs to learn behavior in the element. Just my opinion. However, I am also an extremely considerate person and make sure we are prepared and our seated neighbors are not bothered. On the last flights, he cried a total of 5 minutes per flight and the pax around us went out of their way to tell us how good a kid he was. Dont get much better than that.

Here's a thought: its not the kids. Its the parents, the growing culture of inconsiderate behavior and the faster growing culture of "things owed me"

Parents need to learn to discipline and teach consideration. And no one owes you squat regardless of what you paid for the ticket.


Yeah kids can be (are, LOL) are pain in the ass. I know I was with my parents. But the love one experiences between a
child and a parent is something very special and wonderful. Sorry you feel the way you do.
Imagine if your father felt that way?

Gerard, I could not agree there more.


, at which point my wife said in a loud voice "Thank you - he probably didn't want to listen to you either". His wife was embarrassed - he didn't say another word.


Tell your wife I have stored that line for future use! Priceless!


Tom, to defend RDU to a degree, if my TODDLER was screaming shouting or misbehaving, a slap on the behind is fine by me. BUT, and thats a big BUT, I'm trying to raise this guy right so he's not screaming/shouting or misbehaving. A kid like that is misbehaved right from the start and the only thing changed in that situation is the venue he's allowed to portray his parent's crap job of training.

An infant cries out of pain or simple want. They cry for basics (eat, poop, sleep) and if cranky. Cabin pressure can cause a kid to fuss but even that we learned how to avoid. RDU, you cannot discipline that. A good parent will get up, rock, walk, hold the baby, do what they can to get baby back on track.


So our son's next flight is his first transcon in BUSINESS. He'll be 20 months.
Jordan, be sure to say hello should you see us onboard. Some kids are pretty good.

[moose135]

I swear, this is the reason why I had a vasectomy as soon as I turned 18.
On behalf of the rest of the human race, thank you for taking yourself out of the gene pool.

Tommy, I agree - I think SWA handled this poorly. And Mario, your son is one of the best behaved little kids I know!

[Jordan Howell]

My thoughts:
-If its a newborn screaming baby its not the baby's fault. I should hope the baby's parents are only traveling with the kid for an extreme emergency or something along those lines--not to fly across the country to visit Cousin Ed. Let cousin Ed fly to visit you
-If its a toddler and they scream, shout, misbehave, or the like the blame is on the parents for not properly disciplining their kid.
-Older kids should know right and wrong and how to properly behave so blame the kids as well as the parents.
-Unfortunately I have flown with adults who have behaved FAR WORSE than the worst kid imaginable so let's not just make this a witch hunt against the kids!

I say they should "cushion" the 3 rows in front of and in back of the exit row for no kids under 4 to ensure some sort of peace and quiet...


-Older kids should know right and wrong and how to properly behave so blame the kids as well as the parents.

Agreed


-Unfortunately I have flown with adults who have behaved FAR WORSE than the worst kid imaginable so let's not just make this a witch hunt against the kids!

I included adults as well, this is what I said:


I for one absolutely cannot stand unruly kids (or any unruly passengers for that matter) on planes.

[Jordan Howell]

Not to make excuses but one of the kids was autistic and the other had cerebral palsy. That cant be easy even in your home especially the autistic child. I know people with autistic children and it is incredibly challenging to raise that child. Maybe the parents should have notified the
airlines/flight crew before boarding and something could have been arranged to make the flight go smoothly.
Jordan, enjoy your fish. Yeah kids can be (are, LOL) are pain in the ass. I know I was with my parents. But the love one experiences between a
child and a parent is something very special and wonderful. Sorry you feel the way you do.
Imagine if your father felt that way?


Jordan, enjoy your fish.

Oh I do, thanks! I have a Golden Retriever, "Tango", as well. Golden Retriever are such awesome dogs.


Imagine if your father felt that way?

He very well may have, maybe that is why he left. I do love my step father though and had wonderful grandparents who took care of me for several years.

[Jordan Howell]

I have flown with my kids and never had a problem with them. It was NEVER easy and when I hear comments like Gerrards, I am glad I am not alone in feeling the way I do. As for the anti child flyers club posting here, if your views were normal, there would be airlines trying to ban children as a premium cost alternitive. Nobody likes a screaming child, but to say a child can not fly? hmmmm

I never said that kids could not fly. I said that I would be willing to pay more for child free flights. Say on a route like MCO - LGA that has maybe nine daily flights, just give me one child free flight out of the nine.


if your views were normal

Oh, well I'm glad I finally found out who sets the standard for "normal" now.

[Jordan Howell]

The "pregnant sister" character looks like a hardcore meth addict, I wouldn't be surprised if she were the root of the problem. Also "Bobby Tucker, Grandmother." Wow. I feel bad for the kids, but I can imagine being anywhere near these loony toons would be hell for anyone.

Right on, they look like something that came right off the Maury Povich Show! I guess all those kids can put stress on those parents, that must be the root of that woman's obesity problem. :shock: And then they put their sob story all over the news for the public to see, sheesh someone get them a violin....

[Jordan Howell]

You know while we’re at it let’s put Blacks, Hispanics, Mentally retarded, Robed Muslims, Hasidic Jews, Fat people, Gay couples, and any group that bothers someone else to the back of the plane. That way you can enjoy your flight….

Here’s an idea…instead of “gladly spending $200 bucks more for a child free flight.” Go buy yourself a pair of BOSE’s QC2 or QC3 Noise canceling headphones, I have the QC2s and they do a very nice job at cutting out having to hear morons sitting around me.


You know while we’re at it let’s put Blacks, Hispanics, Mentally retarded, Robed Muslims, Hasidic Jews, Fat people, Gay couples, and any group that bothers someone else to the back of the plane. That way you can enjoy your flight….

Wow, no where did I ever state anything remotely close to that. Are you insinuating that I am racist? My third wife was black and I still have fond memories of my times with her. We had met back in college at a Young Republicans meeting and then met again years later and our relationship depended. It was a good marriage, but I guess just didn't have the structure to make it all the way to the finish line. Anyway I resent the idea of you thinking I would harbor such thoughts. My point is that anyone who is not well mannered should not be flying. Flying is a privilege, not a right.

[Jordan Howell]

When I was a kid I didn't dare get out of line for I was always threatened that it would be off to military school. .... I've even flown in first class before with rude kids in it. ..I swear, this is the reason why I had a vasectomy as soon as I turned 18.

-Well, perhaps threats to military school can explain some the happy memories you have regarding childhood and your wanting to avoid kids.
-First class is a large seat and more space. It does not mean people with class sit there.
-Less than a dozen posts here and I know of your vasectomy? Too much information. Welcome to the site but perhaps a bit of discretion is warranted?


So our son's next flight is his first transcon in BUSINESS. He'll be 20 months.
Jordan, be sure to say hello should you see us onboard. Some kids are pretty good.


-Well, perhaps threats to military school can explain some the happy memories you have regarding childhood and your wanting to avoid kids.

And maybe something to do with just last week a kid, not watching what he was doing, ran into me with his chocolate ice cream bar and got it all over my new Ralph Lauren pleated wool pants! I have expensive taste and take good care of my belongings; my house, car, and belongings are not kid friendly.


-Less than a dozen posts here and I know of your vasectomy? Too much information. Welcome to the site but perhaps a bit of discretion is warranted?

Ah, my apologies and will try and be a little less personal.


Jordan, be sure to say hello should you see us onboard. Some kids are pretty good.[/

Will do, I agree I have also seen some very well behaved kids on flight. Just not the ones who sit behind me and stick their fingers in my hair.

[Jordan Howell]

On behalf of the rest of the human race, thank you for taking yourself out of the gene pool.

Hmmm, I see you have to resort to personal attacks. That kind of behavior is beneath me and I would hope all adults. I think of myself as being responsible for doing what I did. I decided long ago that I did not want kids and took the appropriate action. I feel very bad for the kids who are born into broken homes and were essentially not planned for and not wanted by their parent(s). People should take responsibility for their own actions. If someone were to become pregnant unintentionally then the parents should do the right thing and have the child placed for adoption into a loving home. There are thousands of people who would love to have a child but are not able.

So please get off of your high horse and end the name calling. I have a very good life and I am not ashamed of anything I have done to attain and keep it.

[RDU-JFK]

However my mindset is a bit different. We still dine at steakhouses and nice restaurants but choose to eat 430ish, when its still quiet. It allows us to teach him how to interact with others, how to behave but at a time when the restaurants are not super busy.

Likewise, we've staged our son's flights so far b/c we want him to be a seasoned flier. His first flight at 4 months was 3 hours; At 6 months, 1 hour; at 16 months, 4 hrs. Again, a child needs to learn behavior in the element. Just my opinion. However, I am also an extremely considerate person and make sure we are prepared and our seated neighbors are not bothered. On the last flights, he cried a total of 5 minutes per flight and the pax around us went out of their way to tell us how good a kid he was. Dont get much better than that.



I wish more parents were as considerate as you are, Mirrodie!

[T-Bird76]

Wow, no where did I ever state anything remotely close to that. Are you insinuating that I am racist? My third wife was black and I still have fond memories of my times with her. We had met back in college at a Young Republicans meeting and then met again years later and our relationship depended. It was a good marriage, but I guess just didn't have the structure to make it all the way to the finish line. Anyway I resent the idea of you thinking I would harbor such thoughts. My point is that anyone who is not well mannered should not be flying. Flying is a privilege, not a right.

Discrimination isn't simply based on color, culture, sex, or religion. You are making a statement that a certain group of people shouldn't be flying or should be segregated to a certain part of the cabin. That my fellow flyer is discrimination and simply because you we're married to a black woman doesn’t mean a thing in my book.

The free flow of people by air travel is a right in this country. Many airlines get some sort of public tax breaks in the form of reduced landing fees, tax abetments, Gov't contracts or w/e else the Fed, State, and local Gov'ts feel they need to give an airline for service to a community. When public money is involved these companies dam well better respect the right of the Taxpayer right of passage.

Lets dispense with the Bull for a min and look at the reality of the situation and this isn't to down anyone or their job but FA's really aren't the brightest bulbs on the porch. Most have no college education and weren't graduating top in their HS's either. They have very little understanding of Special Needs individuals and simply fall back on training that was designed on a 5th grade level. They see what they perceive is not normal behavior and they come to one conclusion that they were taught in their training class.

WN has a history of kicking people off of planes with very little hard evidence they were a danger to anyone. Remember the chick who was dressed a bit to revealing? How was she a danger? How many of you watched that series "Airline?" I was shocked to see how often a simple gate agent refused people to board because they thought they were drunk even without employing local to Police to make a determination. Who is a gate agent to say you’re drunk or not? That's an attack on your character and without legal proof you are drunk they really have no right IMO to deny you from flying.

This simply comes down to WN's operating procedures vs. the procedures of other airlines. I think WN is a fine company who offers a good product for the money but in this case they were wrong and the people involved shouldn’t be dealing with the public.

[PhilDernerJr]

Let's try to keep it civil, guys. :(

[Alex T]

I was shocked to see how often a simple gate agent refused people to board because they thought they were drunk even without employing local to Police to make a determination. Who is a gate agent to say you’re drunk or not? That's an attack on your character and without legal proof you are drunk they really have no right IMO to deny you from flying.

I won't comment on anything but just want to correct a small thing here. We are trained to recognize signs of drunkness as CSA's for SWA. Not sure if other airlines follow this also.

Every airline bumps drunk people off, this is not a SWA thing. I have had drunk people come over from other airlines at STL usually AA also stating they were bumped off and need to ride on SWA. Obviously we are not going to sell them a ticket either.

It isn't hard to decide if someone is drunk, slurring, eyes are a bit wide, acting a bit crazy. We all know if someone is drunk. We are using the same tactic also.

We are also thinking ahead too, if this guy even appeared remotely drunk, think he IS going to ask for more drinks on board the plane, we do not want to risk him getting unruly on the plane and disturbing the flight attendants, hence air rage.

I have been in two positions where we denied a passenger from showing signs of being drunk. Once he ignored us, we called the cops and let them deal with it.

Alex

[PhilDernerJr]

People, and I thought everoyne here would know this, need to understand that these kind of incidents happen EVERYDAY, it's only a matter of which cases the media wants to report. This is not a WN-specific incident, but it happens everyday with other carriers. WN has been in the spotlight since that hot chick with the big bijungas was kicked off the plane.

[mirrodie]

My third wife was black and I still have fond memories of my times with her. We had met back in college at a Young Republicans meeting and then met again years later and our relationship depended

You tell Moose to get off this high horse and yet the Moose is the most mellow guy out here.

Do you realize that in the only 15 posts since you've joined, we all know that you've had a vasetomy at 18, you are a total misopedist (an impersonal attack on parents and kids), divorced at least thrice, made a disparraging remark about an airline without regard to the families it employs (considerate of others?) and yet you call out Moose?

Perhaps instead of posting, a visit to Dr. Phil might be more appropriate? Otherwise perhaps you'd have no need to also constantly remind us of how happy you are.

Tone it down a bit and this site can be so much more enjoyable.


I wish more parents were as considerate as you are, Mirrodie!

Assuming you aren't being sarcastic, I hope we are doing the right thing! :mrgreen:

[RDU-JFK]

Assuming you aren't being sarcastic, I hope we are doing the right thing! :mrgreen:
Nope, no sarcasm! :D

[PhilDernerJr]

This thread is clearly leading to a larger conflict and can only get worse. For that reason, this thread is being locked.