Southwest's A list is more like the F list (Updated 12/21)

[T-Bird76]

So taking advantage of Southwest's new A list program I was looking forward to their system checking me in automatically and providing me with a choice position in the A group for my trip to Florida tomorrow, after all they're highly touted "A List" program was designed to put their best customers first right? Well I go to reprint my boarding pass this morning and my position is A52.....Are you seriously going to tell me this flight has 52 A list Rapid Reward members on it? Somehow I seriously doubt it.

First impressions are lasting and so far my first impression of WN's new boarding and loyalty programs gets a big fat F! Looks like I will not be flying SWA as much as I used to in the future if this is what I'm to expect of their A list program. I almost have to wonder if they randomly pick line positions when a person is checked in because in this situation it just doesn't seem like it’s in a sequential manner.

[NIKV69]

You may be right, doesn't sound likely that many could have checked in. I think WN is doing themselves wrong with this. Should have left the boarding procedure alone. The little extra money you make in higher fares for the biz select or whatever isn't worth pissing people off. A, B, C. It's as easy as that. You want a good seat get in line.

[eric8669]

I checked in for my flight about 8AM this morning. I got B 31. Based on previous southwest experience I thought I would be a bit higher up.

[Alex T]

Not at All.

A1-24, sometimes up to 30 are automatically pulled for the Business Select People, then they individually pull the other A's based on the A List people flying, and then it works down the list.

So the 2nd A group A31-60, which is what Tommy seems to be in is for the rest of A list and those checking in and then again down the list...

It differs per flight based on the amount of Y and Business Select People, on top of the A List folks.

Did you speak to the Agent and find out what happened on the phone or find out tomorrow at the gate and ask how many A List there actually are on the flight, it very well could be there IS that many! One flight had 32 Business select passengers, so you can imagine everything got pushed down.

As for randomly picking no they do not, the computer simply spits it out in the order people check in, same way they do it for the old A,B and C.

With that said there are 4 seats left remaining for your flight.

Alex

[T-Bird76]

Alex you explanation proves that this system is needlessly complicated and wrong. I tried following what you just typed and I'm lost. Even on AA's busisiest flights you rarely see that many elites. I called WN customer service and their answer was "that's how the system works" and would not say how many A list customers are on the flight. I'm telling you, YOU DO NOT have that many A list RR members flying on a Saturday morning to FLL, not happening my friend. The program is flawed plain and simple. WN should have created a boarding group called "A list," that gets called for boarding before the normal A group.

[Alex T]

Tommy--

A passes are pulled for Business Select AND A List, so with the combination of the two, there COULD be, but not saying it with confidence, I am not work so I do not have access to the flight loads that generate the fare specific people.

It is not permiseable for an employee to enclose how many A List people there are, it is considered private information along with who is flying on the flight and whatnot.

As for the A List thing before the normal A group, that IS what Business Select is, then A List goes after Business Select, and then down the list.

I really am surprised you got that down the list, as for Eric if he is not A List or Business Select I am curious to what time he checked in.

Check your pm then afteewards.

Alex

[T-Bird76]

Alex....my dear...Saturday morning the slowest travel day of the week is not going to have that many biz select fares and A listers flying. I've flown AA on routes like LGA-ORD and DFW on busy travel days and you might have 20 to tops 30 elites flying not over 50.

[Matt Molnar]

Remember that AA Elite requires you to fly A LOT. SW Business Select only requires that you buy a certain ticket.

[NIKV69]

A1-24, sometimes up to 30 are automatically pulled for the Business Select People, then they individually pull the other A's based on the A List people flying, and then it works down the list.


If this is true then Alex is saying 30 or so seats are reserved for Biz select and the rest is the other A list pax that checked in before Tommy? Could make sense.


Alex you explanation proves that this system is needlessly complicated and wrong.

This will happen when you try to have your cake and eat it too. WN is trying to have some sort of system here that rewards a biz pax that pays a little more and RR members without actually having assigned seating. If it doesn't work it is going to be a disaster. Few questions remain. If WN reserves say 25 seats for biz select and they aren't used does the A list people move up?

[Alex T]

Nick Yes-

A1-24 is generally blocked for Business Select, sometimes more is added if more then those Business Select people actually booked more seats.

Then when people check in they get the Number in roder they checked in up to the last number blocked.

So those A List people checked in before Tommy did. and got those A cards.

Nick if NO ONE buys a business select seat, the A1-24 is STILL blocked, but no worries, A25 and beyond would actually get the first pick, because no one from A1-24 took up those seats, makes sense?

Alex

[T-Bird76]

So WN blocks A1-25 for Biz select? The tier levels for WN's loyalty and fare structure is getting really cloudy now as to who WN feels is its best source of revenue. So any Tom, Dick, Harry can buy a biz select fare and WN puts those passengers first? I guess you can compare it to non elite F class pax boarding on the legacy's before and with elites. However Exec, Exec Plat and Airpass members on AA board with F passengers so WN's procedures here sort of still put their best customers second, I just don't agree with that.

Matt as far as your statement that with AA you have to fly allot to become elite, totally false, infact you'll earn AA gold before you earn Rapid Reward A list with WN. WN doesn't use miles they use segments to qualify you for A list. With AA all you need to do is fly 30,000 elite qualifying miles which is the real miles flown and you'll earn Gold status with WN I need 32 segments. That means flying transcon only 6 times a year will give you AA Gold vs. earning me squat with WN.

I know this is WN's first attempt at an upper level of their Rapid Reward program and I'm sure adjustments will be made as people complain (like me :) ). However WN's test market was truly limited with the new boarding procedure and Rapid Reward program and this is why I believe there are so many holes in the program right now. From my point of view as a business traveler just like Art at ISP did with US I’ll end up shifting my business to a carrier that truly respects my loyalty. The thing that I loved about WN was that it was so easy to fly them. Admit it guys look at this thread, Alex is giving a million reasons for this and that, Nick is trying to figure it out along with I and not just here. You can go to Flyertalk and see the same thing. Before all these changes WN was simple....A.B.or C, get on the plane sit down and that's that. Alex you love WN but they really are becoming just like everyone else and that's nothing to be proud of.

Oh and if Chris W is reading this, see I can bitch about other airlines besides Delta :P

[Alex T]

So WN blocks A1-25 for Biz select? The tier levels for WN's loyalty and fare structure is getting really cloudy now as to who WN feels is its best source of revenue. So any Tom, Dick, Harry can buy a biz select fare and WN puts those passengers first? I guess you can compare it to non elite F class pax boarding on the legacy's before and with elites. However Exec, Exec Plat and Airpass members on AA board with F passengers so WN's procedures here sort of still put their best customers second, I just don't agree with that.

Yes that is correct. Because those who paid the MOST for that flight, Business Select boards first. Do figure though, while any tom, dick and harry CAN buy a business select who actually does?! Those average people probably don't have the financial means to book business select every single time, however those business people do. The best customers are those who fly SWA a lot, yes which generally ARE the business select people whom are also on the A List too.


Matt as far as your statement that with AA you have to fly allot to become elite, totally false, infact you'll earn AA gold before you earn Rapid Reward A list with WN. WN doesn't use miles they use segments to qualify you for A list. With AA all you need to do is fly 30,000 elite qualifying miles which is the real miles flown and you'll earn Gold status with WN I need 32 segments. That means flying transcon only 6 times a year will give you AA Gold vs. earning me squat with WN.

That is also true, and I also wonder if connecting flights on SWA count as segment or if is still considered one. Ie, an ISP-MDW-LAS with a change of planes in MDW still counts as one "flight/segment". This I need to find out.

Though, Matt was reffering to BUSINESS SELECT, not the A List. Which IS True, you WILL get better benefits just booking Business Select over flying AA 6 times a year to get Gold for the same Elite Benefits.

Try 7 times hehehe flying AA 6 times r/t only gets you just a hair under 30K, but I get the point, so don't hit me! :D


I know this is WN's first attempt at an upper level of their Rapid Reward program and I'm sure adjustments will be made as people complain (like me :) ). However WN's test market was truly limited with the new boarding procedure and Rapid Reward program and this is why I believe there are so many holes in the program right now.

I understand this as an employee and a customer, and I HAVE urged Tom and many others, don't like it? DO NOT complain to me, and call the airline and make the complaints there. I truly do support complaints, as long as it was tried, and done first, then echo your concerns, statements and such. I don't sit here and defend the airline, I simply state the facts and as is, and if you don't like it then complain or go somewhere else. I certainly don't mean it in a rude way either, there is an airline for everyone as noticed before.

I have only heard complaints from Tom, at work when I non rev I take the time to ask customers how they like and I truly have heard nothing but good feedback, some adjustments may need to be made some may not, again its really a personality thing over whats "right" The only downside I have heard is for people whom are die hard exit row fans, like Tom, who yes with the old boarding system was able to secure an exit row first hand, and now may not be so lucky.


The thing that I loved about WN was that it was so easy to fly them. Admit it guys look at this thread, Alex is giving a million reasons for this and that, Nick is trying to figure it out along with I and not just here. You can go to Flyertalk and see the same thing. Before all these changes WN was simple....A.B.or C, get on the plane sit down and that's that. Alex you love WN but they really are becoming just like everyone else and that's nothing to be proud of.


Thats just it Tom, believe it or not WN's BIGGEST complaint of the boarding system, was no assigned seating and having to stand in line. You clearly are the exception and LOVED the old system. Many of their passengers did NOT and asked for a change, more specifically a way to reward the business people who bought Y fares, and to not have to stand in line anymore "hours in advance"

Yes I love WN, but believe me I HAVE had complaints against the airline as an employee, and customer, as you very well know, and am not THAT quick to defend the airline, and to this day I don't defend them. I reiterate the facts and statements, regardless of anyone who likes it or does not.


Oh and if Chris W is reading this, see I can bitch about other airlines besides Delta :P

...and I get to deal with it as much as you do about DL ;)

Alex

[NIKV69]

a carrier that truly respects my loyalty

If you are looking for that in WN your looking in the wrong place. You know better than anyone what their model is. Keep them full and keep them flying. Best way to do this is to pack them in quick and turn them around. This new boarding procedure is just ripe for failure. Either take care of your frequent flyers or keep the playing field level. IMO any other way is not going to work, I mean what happens if an RR is checked in and doesn't show to board on time? Keep it first come first served. Line em up! Short of going to complete assign seating (Which will never happen) it's the only way.

[Alex T]

I mean what happens if an RR is checked in and doesn't show to board on time? Keep it first come first served. Line em up! Short of going to complete assign seating (Which will never happen) it's the only way.

..and that has to do with what Nick?

WN gives his seat away at the gate, just like any other airline would work and does the same way, by RR, this means Rapid Rewards the PROGRAM, ANYONE can be a Rapid Reward Member at SWA.

Alex

[NIKV69]

OK, well if he shows up during boarding of the group behind his original group? What does WN do? You see you can't have a system that has certain parties line up unless you are going to do it in order of who checked in earlier and who was in line. It's more organized and as we have seen with Tommy ruffles less feathers. IMO WN should not have strayed from their original system. Why sell biz tickets? You are not a biz carrier. Your a cattle car carrier. When you try to mix the two you get what Tommy experienced in this attempt to use the system.

[Alex T]

OK, well if he shows up during boarding of the group behind his original group? What does WN do? You see you can't have a system that has certain parties line up unless you are going to do it in order of who checked in earlier and who was in line. It's more organized and as we have seen with Tommy ruffles less feathers. IMO WN should not have strayed from their original system. Why sell biz tickets? You are not a biz carrier. Your a cattle car carrier. When you try to mix the two you get what Tommy experienced in this attempt to use the system.

Guess what, that person is not flying on WN then. His seat was already given away. This already was the case anyway in the old boarding group of A, B and C. It was his fault for showing up late.

He should be at the gate 10 min before departure and in the area and checked in up to 20 minutes before departure.

Southwest is VERY much a business carrier, WN's ENTIRE business plan is centered around business people, has been from the start, and always will be. WN has never catered to the vacation, leisure people at all. Business people has always been their bread and butter.

Don't even try to call WN a cattle car carrier, the situation could be deemed as one, but SWA is still a Major Airline catering to the business traveler, just like every other airline, by doing constant hour by hour departure on highly touted business routes.

WN sells biz tickets to cater TO the business people who travel on SWA, and to offer a better advantage of flying WN more then ever, priority boarding, free drink, and extra points to their system, in the same way flying in F gets you a 50% mileage extra on other airlines.

Alex

[NIKV69]

Guess what, that person is not flying on WN then. His seat was already given away. This already was the case anyway in the old boarding group of A, B and C. It was his fault for showing up late.



All the more reason the new system WN is trying will have a tough time working. You are trying to adapt to a boarding system that more closely resembles assigned seating yet when something happens like someone being a little late you revert back to your old model. Got to figure out what your idenity is.


Southwest is VERY much a business carrier, WN's ENTIRE business plan is centered around business people, has been from the start, and always will be. WN has never catered to the vacation, leisure people at all. Business people has always been their bread and butter.

Don't even try to call WN a cattle car carrier, the situation could be deemed as one, but SWA is still a Major Airline catering to the business traveler, just like every other airline, by doing constant hour by hour departure on highly touted business routes.

WN sells biz tickets to cater TO the business people who travel on SWA, and to offer a better advantage of flying WN more then ever, priority boarding, free drink, and extra points to their system, in the same way flying in F gets you a 50% mileage extra on other airlines.



Actually Alex WN was born with one thing in mind. Moving anyone to and fro. Doing it cheaper than anyone else. To achieve this they adopted certain unique practices. Such as a one aircraft fleet to greatly reduce mx cost. Doing away with the hub and spoke system. Quickest turnarounds facilatated by boarding without assigned seats, FAs cleaning planes. Pilots who taxi like Mario Andretti etc. No food, blankets etc. Overselling planes and not giving people as much as other carriers would when they give up their seats when AA bumps one of their valued biz pax they put him up in the best hotel in NYC, give him meals and have him on the next plane out in the morning. With WN if someone missed their connection they missed their connection. Basically like having a bunch of buses with wings. Now WN did great IMO with this and it is why they make money and for the most part get people to their destination on time and safe. BUT don't call them a biz carrier. Just because there are people that use WN for business to reap the rewards of low frills and low cost does not make them a biz carrier. I don't fly WN as much as you but in the year 2007 I flew on 6 flights and can't remember seeing one jacket and tie on any of the flights. A biz carrier takes care of it's biz pax and as we saw with Tommy that did not happen. It's still a matter of who buys the ticket first and who checks in first. Why WN is trying this escapes me. Unless Tommy's experience was an fluke (which I doubt) this new system is not going to work as planned.

[Alex T]

All the more reason the new system WN is trying will have a tough time working. You are trying to adapt to a boarding system that more closely resembles assigned seating yet when something happens like someone being a little late you revert back to your old model. Got to figure out what your idenity is.

Nick- If a passenger show up LATE, regardless of what he booked on, this is HIS fault and his seat will be given away to a stand by revenue passenger or non rev, whatever the listing goes at the gate.

A passenger showing up late and not boarding in his assigned row is not going to make SWA go back to their old ways, and every airline does this.


Overselling planes and not giving people as much as other carriers would when they give up their seats when AA bumps one of their valued biz pax they put him up in the best hotel in NYC, give him meals and have him on the next plane out in the morning.

Overselling planes, like every airline does...? Not giving much back? That is absolutely untrue, the law states every airline must give back a compensation, their one way refund back plus 100 dollar voucher combined if confirmed within 2 hours, and 200 plus one way voucher if not confirmed on next flight.

It is my understanding AA would NOT bump a biz person and would bump someone else. If the airline cannot get someone to compensate they usually bump in order of last person checked in from what I understood.

As for hotels I don't even know how that follows I dont work for AA. As for WN, I have never had a bumped passenger to be put up in a hotel, I always got them on the next flight, and it was always voluntarily (thank god), I never denied anyone.


With WN if someone missed their connection they missed their connection. Basically like having a bunch of buses with wings.

No if they missed their connection, they go on the next flight, again like another airline would do. I don't understand why your trying to make WN be the bad apple, EVERY airline would follow the same procedure.


BUT don't call them a biz carrier. Just because there are people that use WN for business to reap the rewards of low frills and low cost does not make them a biz carrier. I don't fly WN as much as you but in the year 2007 I flew on 6 flights and can't remember seeing one jacket and tie on any of the flights.

Southwest Airlines is a business airline in terms of they cater specifically to the business people in the manner you described it, low fares, generally, and constant, quick and effective flights on an hourly basis, once again usually in highly touted business routes.

Fly DAL-HOU, STL-MDW, STL-MCI, STL-DAL, MCO-FLL, PHX-LAS, etc etc those type of routes you will see a constant stream of business suits, of course not every business person is going to actually wear a suit, i never wore a suit on my business trips with SWA hahaha.


A biz carrier takes care of it's biz pax and as we saw with Tommy that did not happen. It's still a matter of who buys the ticket first and who checks in first. Why WN is trying this escapes me. Unless Tommy's experience was an fluke (which I doubt) this new system is not going to work as planned.

This I agree, for some reason, Tommy did not get a higher boarding pass, but he is NOT, I repeat NOT a business select passenger, he booked this as an A List, so his priority is lower. I did tell him to complain to the airline as I am sure he will, WN cannot fix anything if no one complains.

WN is trying this because the majority of the passengers voted for this type. Yes, Mgmt made the final decision, but it was repeated over and over the majority of WN's passengers loved this new procedure.

I would hope it is a fluke, because I have not heard of anything like this anywhere else, but I do not have the facts of this trip to decide how many business select AND Alist passengers there actually were on this flight. As laughable as it sounds, there COULD BE just that many business select and A list passengers on his flight, his flight is also very full which doesn't help.

I don't see WN changing or getting rid of this procedure, its going quite well for the many other passengers.

Alex

[lijk604]

Fly DAL-HOU, STL-MDW, STL-MCI, STL-DAL, MCO-FLL, PHX-LAS, etc etc those type of routes you will see a constant stream of business suits, of course not every business person is going to actually wear a suit, i never wore a suit on my business trips with SWA hahaha.

Having flown MDW-STL-MDW & BWI-STL-BWI last winter every week for 2 and a half months, I will agree with Alex here. Lots of suits on those flights.

[N790SW]

Southwest is VERY much a business carrier, WN's ENTIRE business plan is centered around business people, has been from the start, and always will be. WN has never catered to the vacation, leisure people at all. Business people has always been their bread and butter.

Don't even try to call WN a cattle car carrier, the situation could be deemed as one, but SWA is still a Major Airline catering to the business traveler, just like every other airline, by doing constant hour by hour departure on highly touted business routes.

WN sells biz tickets to cater TO the business people who travel on SWA, and to offer a better advantage of flying WN more then ever, priority boarding, free drink, and extra points to their system, in the same way flying in F gets you a 50% mileage extra on other airlines.



I have also seen families fly WN a lot also, that of course is in the summer or during parts of the year that kids are not in school.

My views of this new boarding procedure is this- and Alex already seen my views- and lucky me I get to try this out on the 27th of this month.

I personally like the way the old boarding procedure was- I was always the first one on line and I didn't have to pay 132 dollars for it. Me personally I hate change, I admit that, but if this new procedure gives me a window seat to and from BWI then hey maybe I can write something different.

Alex will probably kill me for saying all this but hey I too am his WN partner in crime!

[NIKV69]

the law states every airline must give back a compensation, their one way refund back plus 100 dollar voucher combined if confirmed within 2 hours, and 200 plus one way voucher if not confirmed on next flight.



Yea but that is nothing compared to what real biz airlines do. They offer much more to them and the people that give up seats.


No if they missed their connection, they go on the next flight, again like another airline would do. I don't understand why your trying to make WN be the bad apple, EVERY airline would follow the same procedure.


Not exactly, I have a friend who is AA plat and his flight was cancelled due to wx. AA put him up in ORD Hilton, car service and meals. I mean it's not the fairest comparison but that is a biz carrier. WN is a LLC that occasionally flies biz pax.


i never wore a suit on my business trips with SWA hahaha.



Why would you? Your not a business man. Your a CSA for WN. LOLOLOL


I repeat NOT a business select passenger

Here lies the problem. WN is trying to classify a biz pax by someone who just paid a little more fare. Not someone who has already flown and patronized the airline like Tommy has. As I said before WN is trying to re-invent the wheel here. To do this properly people like Tommy who actually does travel on business should get the rewards but since WN never had a biz select fare until now he is just a RR member who gets put behind them. Doesn't make much sense.

[Alex T]

Not exactly, I have a friend who is AA plat and his flight was cancelled due to wx. AA put him up in ORD Hilton, car service and meals. I mean it's not the fairest comparison but that is a biz carrier. WN is a LLC that occasionally flies biz pax.

Well that certainly was nice of WN to do considering it was a WX and AA should not have done anything, but hey thats good customer service!

and Man its LCC, not LLC ;)

Occasionally flies business paxs? hehe check the facts, I am willing to bet WN flies one of the highest if not top say maybe 3 or 5 spots of business passengers.


Why would you? Your not a business man. Your a CSA for WN. LOLOLOL

Well, I had a lot of business trips on WN, I just never wore a suit.

Not a CSA for them anymore, on a leave of absence for now.


WN never had a biz select fare until now he is just a RR member who gets put behind them. Doesn't make much sense.

To be put more specifically, since he did give WN a lot of money and business he got put on the A List, which is ABOVE regular passengers but behind Business Select Paxs.


I have also seen families fly WN a lot also, that of course is in the summer or during parts of the year that kids are not in school.

Bobby, that is very obvious, and every airline will see this, We are only discussing how often we see business people.

Alex

[NIKV69]

Well that certainly was nice of WN to do considering it was a WX and AA should not have done anything, but hey thats good customer service!



Ahhh spoken like a true member of WN. You see Alex AA did what they did because they truly appreciate the fact that this man flies millions of miles around the world with them. Rather than save money like WN would want to do in this situation they said to this person we are going to do the right thing for you since you do the right thing for us. WN's attittude would be a totally different one such as your "It was wx and shouldn't have done anything. This is one of the differences between a real biz carrier and WN.


I am willing to bet WN flies one of the highest if not top say maybe 3 or 5 spots of business passengers.


Well pay up because you lost that bet.


Well, I had a lot of business trips on WN, I just never wore a suit.

Not a CSA for them anymore, on a leave of absence for now.


Alex your not a businessman. Your trips were work related ferrying. Big difference. A business traveler is some who actually works in the business world. Take my friends dad. Also an AA plat. He works for a big Japanese bank. Flies to Japan twice a month, all over the USA all the time. Handles financing on things like Embraer building their aircrafts etc. That is a businessman who utilizes an airline to fly in a business capacity. Tommy flies to places to conduct his work for his company. That is a business traveler.


To be put more specifically, since he did give WN a lot of money and business he got put on the A List, which is ABOVE regular passengers but behind Business Select Paxs.


Exactly so Tommy who is a real biz pax has to wait for 50 people. Where anyone can pony up a few more bucks and board first and take the better seats. You see by not actually having an assigned seat it's still hit or miss. Which Tommy found out the hard way.

[Alex T]

Ahhh spoken like a true member of WN. You see Alex AA did what they did because they truly appreciate the fact that this man flies millions of miles around the world with them. Rather than save money like WN would want to do in this situation they said to this person we are going to do the right thing for you since you do the right thing for us. WN's attittude would be a totally different one such as your "It was wx and shouldn't have done anything. This is one of the differences between a real biz carrier and WN.

Actually I have given hotel rates for WX delays and such for good customer service. We do right by customer service, not by saving money.

So try again.


Well pay up because you lost that bet.

Facts Please? Considering WN flies the highest amount of passengers in the world, I would be very sure WN fits in the top 5 for flying the most amount of business passengers.

One link states WN is the number one choice for business travelers..while it doesnt show that WN actually DOES fly the most I again would be surprised if WN doesn't crak the top 5.
1. Southwest Airlines
Southwest always delivers consistent customer service, friendly faces, and in many cases, well-timed comedic delivery. Staff think outside of the corporate "box" and are creative in serving their customers (on a recent flight from New Orleans, the flight attendant delivered a hilarious take on the typical air safety presentation). Southwest's Rapid Rewards program is one of the best frequent flier programs (who needs miles when we can have points?!), and their prices usually undercut the national carriers. The quick rewards and affordable prices make this airline tops with business travelers.
Top Picks: Southwest Airlines
http://businesstravel.about.com/od/airl ... nes_tp.htm (http://businesstravel.about.com/od/airlines/tp/bestairlines_tp.htm)

with B6 following 2nd, AA 3rd, CO 4th, and UA 5th...

Anyhow if you can find a link disputing it or showing WN does not fly a lot of business passengers please post it and I'll gladly admit defeat in that area.

As for the rest..what defines a business traveler? Whats work related ferrying? I had to fly to a meeting or stuff to do work for SWA. That is a business trip, i was fortunate I got to fly for free, being I worked for an airline. I would define anyone who is on a business trip, flying for work as a business man, is it going to be the Jack who bought a business select fare, is he a business man? Is it gonna be the 30,000 mile flyer who only flies coach but still offers a lot of money to the airline a businessman? I certainly am not claiming to BE a business man and certainly have no claim to do so, but I have done business trips where I had to fly for SWA for work stuff.

Alex

[NIKV69]

Actually I have given hotel rates for WX delays and such for good customer service. We do right by customer service, not by saving money.



In the eyes of WN you do. If you compared it to real biz carriers you would fall far short. Your a no frills airline.


Considering WN flies the highest amount of passengers in the world, I would be very sure WN fits in the top 5 for flying the most amount of business passengers.



This is a very misleading stat. Sure you fly the most people, but you probably fall very short in miles. Serious Biz travelers don't fly ISP-BWI or the millions of short hops WN does. Include miles into that statistic. Truth be known real business travelers that fly serious miles will pick AA and CO over you every time and do on a regular basis. If you look at some of the rankings out there that are not based just on bodies flown carries like Frontier and B6 are higher. Or when JD power asked people that fly who the best is they said CO.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/su ... 755622_ITM (http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-5755622_ITM)

You see Alex most people flown doesn't translate into top of anything.


As for the rest..what defines a business traveler?

A lawyer who travels somewhere to meet a client. Someone like Tommy who goes to another place where the company he works for in NY has a building and he does the same thing. They are in the business world. You are a gate agent for an airline. Your like a FA that is dead heading. Your not putting any money into the company, your merely enjoying a perk of your job. A businessman is someone who plops down (or his co plops down) top fare to fly. Thus gets treated better than the recreational traveler. WN is trying to redo that equation.


is it going to be the Jack who bought a business select fare, is he a business man

Probably not. I am not a business man but I can afford to plop down the extra money to get the fare and get on the plane first.


Is it gonna be the 30,000 mile flyer who only flies coach but still offers a lot of money to the airline a businessman

If he is flying that much then he most likley is a businessman and has probably put much more into the airline than me who flew once and bought a biz fare. Which is why Tommy is not happy.

[Alex T]

Serious Biz travelers don't fly ISP-BWI or the millions of short hops WN does.

Ok, so if they fly SWA, they are not serious business travelers? Nick, think again, the business people DO IN FACT fly the "million of short hops". Why do you think WN flies them? To attract and cater to the business travelers who need that short hop flight and such.

Thanks for the other replies to my questions.

Alex

[T-Bird76]

Well I'm back now from Florida and after experiencing WN's new boarding practice I have to say its terrible. I was just truly amazed at how needlessly complicated the procedure is and how totally unprofessional it was. I'm not even sure where to begin but it was enough of a joke to ensure most of my flying in 2008 will not be with Southwest. For those who say the passengers like it....I call Bull**** because the morning I left from ISP I've never seen so many people complain about the same thing while traveling before. Unless you get a really good fare on Southwest I'd look to fly another airline.

[NIKV69]

Why do you think WN flies them

WN started flying them becasue they did away with the traditional hub and spoke system when they began the LCC revoultion. Just because some biz travelers utilize them doesn't mean WN is a biz carrier. They aren't.


Well I'm back now from Florida and after experiencing WN's new boarding practice I have to say its terrible. I was just truly amazed at how needlessly complicated the procedure is and how totally unprofessional it was. I'm not even sure where to begin but it was enough of a joke to ensure most of my flying in 2008 will not be with Southwest. For those who say the passengers like it....I call Bull**** because the morning I left from ISP I've never seem so many people complain about the same thing while traveling before

Not a surprise. I think what WN did here is a crucial mistake. Why would they ever want to mess with what made them. I know I know Alex get's a little defensive with respect to his love for WN but look it without a bias and you will see that they are making a huge mistake here. Why they would want to start selling a higher fare and holding rows for certain people is beyond me. Especially if someone who has flown them a ton more has to wait even after they have checked in first. A B C, it is as easy as that. First checked in, first in line, first to board. It's how it worked so well before. I think Tommy's experience is typical and unfortunate. Everyone knows WN will fight to the end not to go to assigned seating for obvious reasons but to try to have this alternative is as Tommy said, confusing, unprofessional and frustrating.


Unless you get a really good fare on Southwest I'd look to fly another airline.


What about your license plate? http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/905683/spin.gif

[LGA777]

Anyone like Tommy who does free advertising for WN every time he drives (license plate) should automatically get priority boarding but unfortunately most airline mgrs (any carrier) aren't smart enough to appreciate the value of customers like Tommy.

Tommy things are improving here at US, feel free to fly US when u can.

Cheers

LGA777

[FlyingColors]

So taking advantage of Southwest's new A list program I was looking forward to their system checking me in automatically and providing me with a choice position in the A group for my trip to Florida tomorrow, after all they're highly touted "A List" program was designed to put their best customers first right? Well I go to reprint my boarding pass this morning and my position is A52.....Are you seriously going to tell me this flight has 52 A list Rapid Reward members on it? Somehow I seriously doubt it.

First impressions are lasting and so far my first impression of WN's new boarding and loyalty programs gets a big fat F! Looks like I will not be flying SWA as much as I used to in the future if this is what I'm to expect of their A list program. I almost have to wonder if they randomly pick line positions when a person is checked in because in this situation it just doesn't seem like it’s in a sequential manner.

That is a heck of a statement coming from you Tommy! Wow.

[Alex T]

I spoke to some CSA's at WN about Tommy's situation.

No one believed me that an A Lister got A52, they didn't know how to explain how he got A52, it just should NOT have happened.

So I did apologize to tommy on behalf of WN, he should have gotten between A26-A40 which is usually when A Listers get their boarding cards. There was apparantly a fluke in his check in system that had him pushed back.

Under NORMAL circumstances, again not making excuses, stating "how it goes" is A1-25 is pulled automatically for business select people REGARDLESS if any were actually booked, not rows, as Nick said.

A listers are next, reason is being Business Select people paid the most for that flight, so they were treated first before anyone else. If anyone disagrees with it then ok, but again stating how it is.

As for people complaining at WN, passenger wise, I have told him and will repeat it from MY stance from workign and traveling I haven't heard the complaining tommy has heard, certainly not stating he is a liar, again your not going to make everyone happy. But these passengers should have better educated themselves on the procedure before going to the airport, just like checking the security rules and such.

I will state Tommy was still able to get his exit rows both ways :twisted:

Alex

[NIKV69]

they didn't know how to explain how he got A52, it just should NOT have happened.There was apparantly a fluke in his check in system that had him pushed back.



Hmmm, maybe gremlins got into the system?


Under NORMAL circumstances, again not making excuses, stating "how it goes" is A1-25 is pulled automatically for business select people REGARDLESS if any were actually booked, not rows, as Nick said.

A listers are next, reason is being Business Select people paid the most for that flight, so they were treated first before anyone else. If anyone disagrees with it then ok, but again stating how it is.


I still think this is a chinese fire drill. WN doesn't want to assign seats. So now they save a special boarding group based on a new higher fare. Then an A-list group. BUT if the biz select doesn't fill it's not like another airline where tommy can go up to a CSA and re check in and get the better boarding. See like I said WN is trying to have their cake and eat it. I can't see it working.


As for people complaining at WN, passenger wise, I have told him and will repeat it from MY stance from workign and traveling I haven't heard the complaining tommy has heard

I think your pax will speak louder by flying other carriers. Which you may see in the future. I mean just by what I have heard if I can get a fare close to WN on another carrier from LAS-LAX this winter I am taking it. I would rather be able to pick my seat than play russian roulette.

[PhilDernerJr]

I am very disappointed to learn how this is going. When I first heard about what would be their new process, I didn't understand it, and I just assumed that it was much easier and simple than they first explained.

Now that I hear how complicated it actually is, I am just in shock. This is a decision that was obviously made among powerful people within the company, and for it to come from an airline that has been to smart and successful for so long, it shocking.

If they felt the existing procedure was not good enough, why overcomplicate it? I thought their not using seat assignments was so that it would be easier for everyone.

[Alex T]

I still think this is a chinese fire drill. WN doesn't want to assign seats. So now they save a special boarding group based on a new higher fare. Then an A-list group. BUT if the biz select doesn't fill it's not like another airline where tommy can go up to a CSA and re check in and get the better boarding. See like I said WN is trying to have their cake and eat it. I can't see it working.

Nick, you really are not understanding it then if you keep repeating the "re check in". The seats, because they are not assigned, are NOT BLOCKED. Only the BOARDING PASS POSITION. IF, there are NO Business Select passengers on board they will immediatly board from A26 and beyond, so think of it this way, if no business select passengers are on board, Tommy just got bumped UP 25 slots/spots/position however you want to call it.

Tom mentioned to me he had NO business select passengers on his flight ISP-FLL, so they started to board at A26 (or whatever the position number, again it differs from flight to flight).


I think your pax will speak louder by flying other carriers. Which you may see in the future. I mean just by what I have heard if I can get a fare close to WN on another carrier from LAS-LAX this winter I am taking it. I would rather be able to pick my seat than play russian roulette.

I agree, nothing is louder then seeing your passenger go to another Airline. Even I have followed this myself I have never flown WN just because I liked them, I ALWAYS ALWAYS went for the cheapest, and I encourage others book the cheapest, unless you have a favorite airline, ie Nick your's is continental, perhaps Phil's is ATA etc etc. Mine, I always book on American Airlines. Usually flying out of STL, SWA and AA matched each other so I simply checked times, and aircrafts, most of AA's was on the ERJ, which IMO I'd prefer a 737 with WN over an ERJ with AA/Connection. Again its all on preferences, you'd be fooled to think I booked WN just because I liked them, money talks for me too.


Now that I hear how complicated it actually is, I am just in shock. This is a decision that was obviously made among powerful people within the company, and for it to come from an airline that has been to smart and successful for so long, it shocking.

What is complicated about it? A regular passenger, buys a ticket online, check in at 24hrs in advance, go to the airport get their bags and all checked, then check their boarding group and number. When the ops agent calls your boarding group and number, you go up to the line, stand in it according to your number and then you board the aircraft.


If they felt the existing procedure was not good enough, why overcomplicate it? I thought their not using seat assignments was so that it would be easier for everyone.

Because the passengers were asking for a change, the airline tested in different airports, and did surveys and votes, based on what the passengers wanted. The passengers voted for NOT standing in line for awhile, and they did not care to have assigned seating.

No, I do agree not EVERYONE PASSENGER voted for this new procedure, but the majority of the passengers by far voted for this.

Once again folks, I truly am not so much biased, I just keep reminding the facts and reinstating things. I have my own issues with WN right now :twisted:

Alex

[NIKV69]

IF, there are NO Business Select passengers on board they will immediatly board from A26 and beyond, so think of it this way, if no business select passengers are on board, Tommy just got bumped UP 25 slots/spots/position however you want to call it.


See this is why this system is doomed to failure. If you are going to create a new class of pax (Which I think is foolish) with this biz select why not let them board before anybody period? If they paid more let them board first but don't hold any rows or anything. Make sense? You would have to have 4 boarding classes instead of three and board in order of Biz select, A, B and C. See problem with this is you would have to retrofit all your temimals and this would cost a ton. As would just having assigned seats would too. Let's face it WN is trying to have their cake and eat it. Trying to now cater to a pax that has paid more and giving him an assigned seat without actually having assigned seating. As Phil said, the way you sell tix dictated the way you boarded and that is why it worked. Only real fair way to do it until you created a new class of pax.

[T-Bird76]

So now the press is on WN's new boarding system...and man I could have wrote this article word for word...


Southwest Moves About The Country But The Terminal? Forget It
By Jane WellsCorrespondent
cnbc.com
| 20 Dec 2007 | 05:44 PM ET
I fly Southwest a lot. I like it. Very low expectations, just cheap, reliable service. But they have a new boarding system which is supposed to be an improvement over the one that's worked fine for decades.

Southwest does not assign seats. Instead, when you check in you get a boarding pass stamped A, B, or C. The A's board first, then the B's, then the C's. And each letter has its own line to stand in.

Now, though, the lettered lines are gone, replaced by numerical signs spaced every five feet along the boarding area. When you check in, you still get a letter, but also a number. So if you have A-26, you're supposed to line up below a numerical marker saying 26-30 when they call for the "A's."

Can I tell you how confused people are? It's worse than going metric overnight. The customer service rep has to spend ten minutes explaining where people need to stand, and people are still puzzled. It doesn't seem to speed boarding either.


I suspect we'll be hearing the ten-minute explanation for the next ten years and people STILL won't get it (do you know there are people who still show up at the airport and don't know they have to have liquids in small containers in a plastic bag?)

I sure hope someone didn't earn their Six Sigma Black Belt on this one.

The airline's slogan has been "You are free to move about the country." Moving about the terminal is another matter.

Comments? Funny Stories? Email [email protected]

© 2007 CNBC, Inc. All Rights Reserved
URL: http://www.cnbc.com/id/22348299/?__sour ... &par=yahoo (http://www.cnbc.com/id/22348299/?__source=yahoo|headline|quote|text|&par=yahoo)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MSN Privacy . Legal
© 2007 CNBC.com

[NIKV69]

LOLOL, priceless. I think this will only get worse as WN has made a huge gaff here. I think we will hear more about how this new boarding procedure is chaos. Would love to see how they fix this. Note to WN if you are not going to assign seats (which they won't) go back to your old system and give biz select pax preboard status before the A group.

[lijk604]

Nick,
I think you hit it right on the head.
If they insist on Biz-select, just chage your boarding areas to A / B / C / D where A = Biz-Select.
End of confusion.

[tipek]

I love this topic. I spent last 30 minutes readying Tommys complain about his usetobe-favorite airline, Alex deffending his beloved employer and Nick taking Tommys side. This reading is hilarious :)
Now I want to add few cents to the subject.
- When you book ticket on real airline, you are able to select your seat during the booking process. You don't have to stay up all night waiting for time to check in with WN.
- I can't imagine taking flights with WN over 1hr long. You call that leather seats?
On my both WN flights I had a seat with "leather" sticking up in the shape of triangle. I don't know if WN passengers are sucking up leather with their asses. Both flights felt like I was flying on a wooden seat.
- After flying only 25K miles with US Airways in the first part of 2007 I'm getting complimentary upgrades to first class on almost every single flight. In the worst case, US Airways is putting me in the emergency exit row or bulkhead seats for being loyal customer (I've flown 66K miles with US this year)
- Do you remember two seasons of "Airline" on A&E channel? The only people that I saw there were eather drunks or first time flyers. Don't remember business people there.

Enjoy your holiday. :)

Rafal

[NIKV69]

When you book ticket on real airline, you are able to select your seat during the booking process. You don't have to stay up all night waiting for time to check in with WN.


Oh ****..Hope Alex isn't around.



Do you remember two seasons of "Airline" on A&E channel? The only people that I saw there were eather drunks or first time flyers. Don't remember business people there.


LOLOL, yea well WN does appeal to the trailor trash but there are some business folk. The point I was trying to make was WN was trying to be something their not. Sure they fly some business people but they built their model on shoving them into the plane without assigned seats. It does them good. In fact I like it. First come first served (Or first checked in) is simple and it works. Why they wanted to try this is beyond me. I can't believe Alex when he said pax were asking for a change. I flew WN for 6 flights last year and the only problems I saw was letting every kid preboard. When they only needed to let the real young ones preboard. Beside that it worked fine. I still say they will have to go back as this chaos they have created can't be good.


After flying only 25K miles with US Airways in the first part of 2007 I'm getting complimentary upgrades to first class on almost every single flight. In the worst case, US Airways is putting me in the emergency exit row or bulkhead seats for being loyal customer (I've flown 66K miles with US this year)


Can't compare the two. WN can't do these things. No first class, no assigned seats and they are just not that type of carrier.

[Alex T]

- When you book ticket on real airline, you are able to select your seat during the booking process. You don't have to stay up all night waiting for time to check in with WN.

Who the heck stays up all night to check in on WN? That was like 4 years ago, now its 24 hrs in advance.

Book on a real airline...ok that doesn't charge you for food in coach? Drinks and peanuts on every single flight, minimum, a real airline that has one of the worlds safest records in history, a real airline that is the worlds largest airline domestically and intl, a real airline that usually gets you to your destination on time without pissing off their customers (read that US Airways?).....


- I can't imagine taking flights with WN over 1hr long. You call that leather seats? On my both WN flights I had a seat with "leather" sticking up in the shape of triangle. I don't know if WN passengers are sucking up leather with their asses. Both flights felt like I was flying on a wooden seat.

Yes, they are leather seats, same leather AA uses in F/C, same leather DL uses, it is LEATHER. Only time i can even IMAGINE a wooden seat feeling like your describing is if it was factory delivered fresh, where the seat hasn't been "used" and "sunk in" yet. Otherwise, complete BS.


- Do you remember two seasons of "Airline" on A&E channel? The only people that I saw there were eather drunks or first time flyers. Don't remember business people there.

Memory must be pretty bad, I saw a lot of business folks as well. Also think about this, do you want to watch a show about passengers behaving, actually KNOWING what they are supposed to do, and not see drama, and such like that on TV. That was the main target of the show, every airline would, and still to this day has the drunk people and first time flyers among other type of passengers.


Enjoy your holiday.
You too! Enjoy!


Oh ****..Hope Alex isn't around.
He's around.


Why they wanted to try this is beyond me. I can't believe Alex when he said pax were asking for a change.

Well believe it instead of calling me a Liar. Fact is..Majority of passengers tested this, and liked it and asked WN to change it. Don't believe me, PLEASE Call Colleen and ask yourself, Tommy has her number, I am sure he'd be happy to give it to you. SWA is known for doing what its customers like, generally, passengers complained about standing in line, The airline listened, and responded the best way the passengers voted. Why it is so hard to believe is beyond me. This does NOT mean EVERYONE will like it, but most do.

Alex

[nwafan20]

I absolutely HATE the new boarding procedure, and I think it is such a stupid move, but I have to give Alex a little back up here.

The WN leather seats I sat in (4 in total, 2 each way) were probably some of the most comfortable seats that I have sat in, 10x better than the new AirTran slimline (I hated those with a passion, THEY felt like you were sitting on wood).

I enjoyed my experience on WN before they changed the boarding system. All I can hope is that they change it back, they were a fine airline before, but this new thing is ridiculous.

[tipek]

Dude, you don't have to be all upset because I don't like to fly WN. What I'm saying are the facts that I've experienced while flying with WN. Don't worry, WN is not on my ****list yet. The only airline that have this pleasure is American Airlines/American Eagle.
Back to the topic:


- Book on a real airline...ok that doesn't charge you for food in coach? Drinks and peanuts on every single flight, minimum, a real airline that has one of the worlds safest records in history, a real airline that is the worlds largest airline domestically and intl, a real airline that usually gets you to your destination on time without pissing off their customers (read that US Airways?)......

On all of my US flights I've received drinks and pretzels or peanuts, even on CLT-GSP flight which was 12 minutes in the air.
I don't get your statement about being largest airline domestically and intl? I got the domestic part, but what about Intl. Care to explain?
Well, since you started talking about getting to your destination on time withouth pissing off their customers...
Here are my flights with WN. And now I can tell you that 50% of my flights were delayed :)
B737-700 Southwest BWI BUF WN2886 N414WN 4/8/2006
B737-300 Southwest BUF BWI WN230 N349SW 4/9/2006
Flight WN230 was delayed over 3hrs because aircraft had MX at ORF and was late coming in to BWI and then very late coming in to BUF to pick up pax on its last leg/.


- Yes, they are leather seats, same leather AA uses in F/C, same leather DL uses, it is LEATHER. Only time i can even IMAGINE a wooden seat feeling like your describing is if it was factory delivered fresh, where the seat hasn't been "used" and "sunk in" yet. Otherwise, complete BS.

The wooden feeling was on both of my flights -300 and -700 series aircraft. On the way to BUF I had emergency exit row/window seat but I couldn't seat still. I'm not making jokes right now, person before me had to suck up leather with her/his ass. It was very uncomfortable flight. On the way back, I didn't have emergency exit row, but the seat was also with leather sticking up. I think -700 had new seats and -300 seats were worn out.

No, airlines are not using the same leather. Delta's leather seats are 'puffy', US seats are 'packed' just like B6 seats. The best First class seats were on America West A320s. They were just perfect. (Talking about USA domestic market since WN is not an international airline so I can't compare apples to oranges).



- Memory must be pretty bad, I saw a lot of business folks as well. Also think about this, do you want to watch a show about passengers behaving, actually KNOWING what they are supposed to do, and not see drama, and such like that on TV. That was the main target of the show, every airline would, and still to this day has the drunk people and first time flyers among other type of passengers.

Actually I have first season on DVD at home and I like to watch it. Nothing funnier than drunk people fighting with CSAs :)


Alex, since you started working with WN we can't say anything bad about Southwest because you will always find explanation to the problem. Thats fine, but remember that people are different and have different views on life.
Look at Tommy. All these years he was bragging about WN whenever he could. Now WN have changed little policy and Tommy is pissed :)
Love it! LOL

Rafal :)

[NIKV69]

This does NOT mean EVERYONE will like it, but most do.



Funny but so far in our discussion WN is batting a big fat 0. I still say give it s few weeks and we will see a change. It's turning into a debacle.


This does NOT mean EVERYONE will like it, but most do.



Some of those episodes are funny. You have to remember some of those people were first time flyers that had no idea that WN had no codeshare, basically no anything. So when it goes bad your screwed. Unless your a biz select pax. :borat:


I can't say bad things about the seats. For what they are they are comfortable to me. Again your flying bargain basement. You have to keep that in consideration.

[Alex T]

I don't get your statement about being largest airline domestically and intl? I got the domestic part, but what about Intl. Care to explain?

Southwest Airlines is on set to become the worlds largest airline (in terms of passengers boarded), including International, which yes I know WN doesn't even fly Intl routes, this is due to being SWA flies more passengers then the current largest airline in the world, American Airlines.

Here is a link stating this and why this may happen.

http://www.dancewithshadows.com/flights ... rlines.asp (http://www.dancewithshadows.com/flights/southwest-american-airlines.asp)


Alex, since you started working with WN we can't say anything bad about Southwest because you will always find explanation to the problem.

I don't work for SWA anymore. However, I understand people not liking SWA, but 90% of it is for their own opinion and not factual stuff. Explanations perhaps, doesn't always mean I am right or it IS the right thing.

I never claim WN is all mighty, if I dare do so I be sure to back it up with Facts. I like to think I develope a reputation for being clear, and factual at all times even if it means I have to be wrong. I never try to bribe people into one thing and call them BS's and all, I may state their "facts" are BS. However, to state stuff like WN is not a Real Airline is truthfully, BS. You all know it, it is a Major Airline, Domestically the largest and is known on par for having great CS. To say it isn't is just wrong, and you all know it. Those are the type of unfactual comments I DO get defensive on.


. All these years he was bragging about WN whenever he could. Now WN have changed little policy and Tommy is pissed :) Love it! LOL

No, it really isn't funny, it is quite sad, that one of the best customers for SWA, Tommy is all of a sudden mad at the airline he bragged about and gave the airline free advertising using his license plate. I took it upon myself not only as a friend but as a WN Employee to FIND OUT why he was upset, make excuses stating one thing if needed, and make calls and stuff to my co workers at the company to find out what happened and why he got the pass he did. I got my reasons, explained it to him, apologized, and encouraged him to call Colleen again or write in, as any of you that don't like what WN is offering and complain. WN is ONLY as good as the customer makes it, if you make it a bad flight its GOING to be a bad flight period. The same goes for ANY Airline, and believe it or not WN DOES CARE and WILL respond effectively ASAP to try to come to a reason between you the Customer and Southwest the Airline.


Alex

[NIKV69]

Southwest Airlines is on set to become the worlds largest airline (in terms of passengers boarded), including International, which yes I know WN doesn't even fly Intl routes, this is due to being SWA flies more passengers then the current largest airline in the world, American Airlines.



Again Alex, WN may board a lot of pax but the miles flown is very small compared to the big airlines in the world. Sure in the continental US your one of the biggest but in the world you are still a small fish.


No, it really isn't funny, it is quite sad, that one of the best customers for SWA, Tommy is all of a sudden mad at the airline he bragged about and gave the airline free advertising using his license plate. I took it upon myself not only as a friend but as a WN Employee to FIND OUT why he was upset, make excuses stating one thing if needed, and make calls and stuff to my co workers at the company to find out what happened and why he got the pass he did. I got my reasons, explained it to him, apologized, and encouraged him to call Colleen again or write in, as any of you that don't like what WN is offering and complain. WN is ONLY as good as the customer makes it, if you make it a bad flight its GOING to be a bad flight period. The same goes for ANY Airline, and believe it or not WN DOES CARE and WILL respond effectively ASAP to try to come to a reason between you the Customer and Southwest the Airline.




We know Alex, Tommy just experienced somerthing that most in his position will with this new boarding procedure since you hace now put someone who just plops down more money than someone who has flown more. The rest is all lip service. Whether Tommy files other airlines in the future is up to him but the treatment he is looking for can only be found on another carrier.

[T-Bird76]

Again Alex, WN may board a lot of pax but the miles flown is very small compared to the big airlines in the world. Sure in the continental US your one of the biggest but in the world you are still a small fish.

Nick your statement is very silly....WN is a worldwide admired company, they are not small fish by any means in the airline industry. WN is an industry leader and to be the largest most profitable airline in the nation based on passengers boarded speaks volumes. WN is very much a big fish on the world stage.

I still think WN is a great airline and a great company, I'm just not thrilled at all with this new procedure which I'm hoping they will change.

[NIKV69]

WN is an industry leader and to be the largest most profitable airline in the nation based on passengers boarded speaks volumes. WN is very much a big fish on the world stage.


Nation yes, World hardly. They are great if you want to hopscotch the US. But after that if you need to go long haul it's time to book CO or someone.

[T-Bird76]

WN is an industry leader and to be the largest most profitable airline in the nation based on passengers boarded speaks volumes. WN is very much a big fish on the world stage.


Nation yes, World hardly. They are great if you want to hopscotch the US. But after that if you need to go long haul it's time to book CO or someone.

Nick no one is saying WN is global airline...they aren't but on an industry stage from a business point of view WN is a highly respected company which has had its business model copied more times them most companies. So again they are no small fish. As a matter of fact WN is larger then many global airlines.

[Alex T]

WN is an industry leader and to be the largest most profitable airline in the nation based on passengers boarded speaks volumes. WN is very much a big fish on the world stage.


Nation yes, World hardly. They are great if you want to hopscotch the US. But after that if you need to go long haul it's time to book CO or someone.

Nick, that is NOT what the subject is, who is the best to book intl flights.

World wise WN is set to become the LARGEST AIRLINE in the World because of the amount of passengers they carry which is already surpassing American Airlines, recently the worlds largest, this is defined by passenger carried, this has nothing to do where they fly.

Most of the LCC in the EU and other countries all looked to one Airline-Southwest Airlines. All and most carriers look to WN for the success WN has and try to model it after SWA.

So this by far very definetly proves WN is a big fish in the World.

Even your beloved CO worshipped SWA enough to create their own LCC-Continental Lite, 100% based after WN, which failed miserably. As did Shuttle By United, Delta Express, Metrojet, all were created by the airlines because they admired WN, all also failed.

Alex

[NIKV69]

Alex it's easy to use that stat because it favors WN. Use the stat of pax miles carried and your beloved WN doesn't even crack the top 5. I would think that carries more weight seeing that any body can cram people into a plane and short hop all over the place. WN has done with their model and it has served them well but I hardly think they are a player on the world scale. In the US sure but that is about it.

[PhilDernerJr]

When measuring the success fo an airline, I think that the amoung of people you fly is far more important than how far you are flying them.

Airlines make money by the amount of tickets they sell, not how far their planes go.

As you said, it's easy to use THAT stat because it DOESN'T favor Southwest. Ask anyone in the industry and they'll tell you that distance is irrelevant.

I'm not a huge fan of Southwest, but another solid statistic to use is financial standing. Southwest is the ONLY airline I know of, perhaps in the world, that has stayed in the black for DECADES.

Compare them to domestic airlines in other countries and they also win hands down.

I would also like to say that I don't care for Southwest's seating arrangements, new or old. I either feel anxiety when I don't know where I'm going to sit, or I cannot relax or get excited about my trip until I'm seated because I have to keep my "game face" on to battle people for a good seat. If I'm not going to have a good seat, just let me know ahead of time so I can at least prepare myself and relax.

[T-Bird76]

Alex it's easy to use that stat because it favors WN. Use the stat of pax miles carried and your beloved WN doesn't even crack the top 5. I would think that carries more weight seeing that any body can cram people into a plane and short hop all over the place. WN has done with their model and it has served them well but I hardly think they are a player on the world scale. In the US sure but that is about it.

Nick what are you basing your opinion on that WN isn't a player on the world scale? WN has more influence on the global airline business then airlines that fly worldwide. If we were to follow your logic then airlines like EOS, Silverjet, and Maxjet would be global players simply because they fly over the Atlantic, certainly a great distance farther then WN. Your assumption that an airline that fly's globally means they have more say in the industry is just bullocks... Business decisions made by WN in the Dallas area have a huge affect on AA's global network. Why do you think AA wants to keep WN nice and little at Love Field? Give WN the chance at DFW and AA risks losing a wealth of connecting traffic from south of the boarder. I hate to tell you Nick but the fact that WN is the largest airline in the nation based on passengers boarded makes them a very powerful player in any market, domestically and internationally. I'm sorry but your assumptions are just plain incorrect.

[NIKV69]

WN has more influence on the global airline business then airlines that fly worldwide

How? They are a domestic airline that has stolen a lot of low fare people from the regular carriers that's all.


If we were to follow your logic then airlines like EOS, Silverjet, and Maxjet would be global players simply because they fly over the Atlantic

Your putting some CCN spin on this. Has nothing to do with what we are discussing. If these three carriers chose to try to invent their own niche of carrying a one class of first or biz over the Atlantic for cheaper fares. I doubt it has anything to do with WN.


Why do you think AA wants to keep WN nice and little at Love Field? Give WN the chance at DFW and AA risks losing a wealth of connecting traffic from south of the boarder

So? Your telling me that if B6 was able to get gates at ISP they wouldn't give WN a run for their money? I have never flown airbus but I tell you if the fares and routes were the same I would chose B6 or any other carrier over them. All they have going for them is the fact that they are the only game in town on some of these routes. I mean it's not even a question of fare anymore because they aren't the rock bottom cheapest anymore and their service to some people suck. Just because you and Alex and others here have this love fest for them doesn't mean it's shared by others. I am sure a percentage of WN travelers fly them but are not in love with them.


Most of the LCC in the EU and other countries all looked to one Airline-Southwest Airlines. All and most carriers look to WN for the success WN has and try to model it after SWA.



I'm not a huge fan of Southwest, but another solid statistic to use is financial standing. Southwest is the ONLY airline I know of, perhaps in the world, that has stayed in the black for DECADES.



Well it is easy to just cut everything down to nothing and take away all the services and basically have a bus company with wings. You could put http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/905683/wnpresident.jpgin charge of it's fiances and they would turn a profit. If you want to admire a business plan I would encourage you to buy "From worst to first" from Gordon Bethune or a book written by Lee Iacocca. Men who got the same results without dropping their pants and cutting all services.

[T-Bird76]

How? They are a domestic airline that has stolen a lot of low fare people from the regular carriers that's all.

Nick you don't think that because WN's model has been copied successfully in Europe, Africa, Asia, and the Mid East they don't have an influence on the global industry?


Your putting some CCN spin on this. Has nothing to do with what we are discussing. If these three carriers chose to try to invent their own niche of carrying a one class of first or biz over the Atlantic for cheaper fares. I doubt it has anything to do with WN.


Nick you just totally contradicted your argument. You clearly said in a few above posts that airlines that fly greater distances then WN have more influence on the global airline market. Oh btw WN is also one class of service, the business model works in both directions.


So? Your telling me that if B6 was able to get gates at ISP they wouldn't give WN a run for their money? I have never flown airbus but I tell you if the fares and routes were the same I would chose B6 or any other carrier over them. All they have going for them is the fact that they are the only game in town on some of these routes. I mean it's not even a question of fare anymore because they aren't the rock bottom cheapest anymore and their service to some people suck. Just because you and Alex and others here have this love fest for them doesn't mean it's shared by others. I am sure a percentage of WN travelers fly them but are not in love with them.

A love fest? If I had a love fest for them I don't think I'd be complaining to their VP Colleen Barret about their new boarding procedure. B6 would certainly give WN a run for the money must like WN would give AA a run for the money which I clearly stated but you turned around into some baseless love fest statement.

Well it is easy to just cut everything down to nothing and take away all the services and basically have a bus company with wings. You could put Imagein charge of it's fiances and they would turn a profit. If you want to admire a business plan I would encourage you to buy "From worst to first" from Gordon Bethune or a book written by Lee Iacocca. Men who got the same results without dropping their pants and cutting all services.

Wow is that a false statement...Nick do you remember People's Express? They had a very barebones operation, packed their planes full and guess what?? They went under! No one is saying Gordon Bethune isn't a great leader, he was however Lee Iacocca??? Perhaps the other authors of Iacocca's book should be "The American Tax Payer."

[NIKV69]

You clearly said in a few above posts that airlines that fly greater distances then WN have more influence on the global airline market.

Never said that. I responded to Alex when he said that WN was the biggest airline in the world simply because they board the most bodies. Wel no kidding, you will board more people than an airline such as Qantas when you are flying short hops all the time and Qantas is flying people around the world. It's a totally misleading stat.
I mean you can use any topic you want and get different Carriers. Use average amount of mile flown per passenger and who will you get? It's smoke and mirrors.


Nick do you remember People's Express? They had a very barebones operation, packed their planes full and guess what?? They went under

This means nothing Tommy, what about B6? They came in and were successful. There is always going to be success and failure with every venture, there is always unknown circumstances that can cause failure.


Perhaps the other authors of Iacocca's book should be "The American Tax Payer."


Didn't say Bethune was Iacocca, I used them as two seperate exmaples.