Al-Qaeda Suspects Sue Boeing

[Matt Molnar]

World Tribune:

Al Qaida suspects sue Boeing, with ACLU's help (http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2007/ss_terror_06_01.asp)

WASHINGTON — Boeing has been sued by suspected Al Qaida operatives transported by the CIA to Arab countries for interrogation and torture.

The American Civil Liberties Union has filed a federal lawsuit against Boeing subsidiary Jeppesen Dataplan on behalf of three Al Qaida suspects transported by the CIA under the so-called "extraordinary rendition program."

The suit charged that Jeppesen helped the CIA transport the three plaintiffs to secret locations in Egypt and Morocco, where the company knew they would undergo torture, Middle East Newsline reported.

"American corporations should not be profiting from a CIA rendition program that is unlawful and contrary to core American values," ACLU executive director Anthony Romero said. "Corporations that choose to participate in such activity can and should be held legally accountable." More... (http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2007/ss_terror_06_01.asp)

[T-Bird76]

The ACLU's motto should be "The ACLU destroying America, a little bit everyday."

[moose135]

Maybe you should find out a little about the ACLU before making a statement like that.

From their website:


The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of these protections and guarantees:

* Your First Amendment rights-freedom of speech, association and assembly. Freedom of the press, and freedom of religion supported by the strict separation of church and state.
* Your right to equal protection under the law - equal treatment regardless of race, sex, religion or national origin.
* Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake.
* Your right to privacy - freedom from unwarranted government intrusion into your personal and private affairs.

We work also to extend rights to segments of our population that have traditionally been denied their rights, including Native Americans and other people of color; lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgendered people; women; mental-health patients; prisoners; people with disabilities; and the poor.

If the rights of society's most vulnerable members are denied, everybody's rights are imperiled.

Oh, and by the way, I'm proud to be a member.

[nwafan20]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/Ithilien_Lady/ACLU.jpg

http://www.sullivan-county.com/immigration/aclu.jpeg

http://www.conservativethinking.com/files/aclu-holiday-carols.jpg

The ACLU is a good for nothing organization. I can say they have personally affected me, but that story is for another time my friends...

[T-Bird76]

John the ACLU is supporting three Al Qaida members, there's not much more you need to know about this organization. I guess they should add to their mission.


"We work also to extend rights to segments of our population that have traditionally been denied their rights, including Native Americans and other people of color; lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgendered people; women; mental-health patients; prisoners; people with disabilities, the poor, and enemies of the United States.

Common simply because you support them you can't agree with this. Why do any of us even care that these pigs will be tortured? I support any method our gov't wants to use if it leads to stopping an attack on this nation. Do you think they care about torturing us? NO they don't, perhaps the ALCU can sue Binladen while they’re at it. They don't deserve any rights nor should they be granted any.

These are enemies of our nation who want to destroy us, it’s that simple and there's no debate. But the ACLU is standing up for them? Give me a god dam break it’s a slap in the face to every American who was killed on 9/11 and every solider that has died in operations against terror across the globe.

[nwafan20]

it’s a slap in the face to every American who was killed on 9/11 and every solider that has died in operations against terror across the globe.

Amen!

[moose135]

Let's see, if I can remember way back to my American history classes, I think in this country you are innocent until proven guilty. The people involved in this suit were suspected of involvement with Al-Qaeda, and were detained and tortured apparently in the hopes they would provide information.

One of those in the lawsuit was a German citizen, born in Kuwait, detained in Eastern Europe because he had the same name as a suspected Al-Qaeda terrorist. He was then turned over to the CIA, who flew him Afghanistan and held him for 5 months before releasing him, without so much as an apology. Oops! Is this really the behavior you want from your government? It sure as hell isn't what I want from mine.

When we throw out the rule of law that has guided this nation for over 200 years, we start on a road to ruin. I fully support finding and punishing those behind the attacks of 9/11 - I'm still waiting for this Administration to do that, by the way. But using 9/11 as a catch-all reason to invade countries, violate human rights, and torture or kill people, that is a slap in the face of those who died protecting our rights and freedoms.

[T-Bird76]

John the fact is the CIA isn't simply picking up anyone off the street and flying him or her to some remote place for a chat over some coffee and donuts. These people are suspected of involvement in planning attacks against the U.S and the interests of the U.S. Why is the ACLU suing Boeing and not the Gov't that turned him over? How is he U.S at fault here? We were given someone that an allied Gov't SAID is a suspected terrorist. Are we supposed to spend a month or two investigating him and give him the chance to hide out? I’m sure there’s more to this story then “oh we mixed up his name.” If he were for real the same people suing would be saying our Gov't doesn't do enough.

The question remains are you willing to take a chance and use due process on suspected enemies of the state and risk releasing someone who could have provided us with valuable information in this war? I'm not.

When you break down what we are going through is pretty simple, it’s our way of life vs. their way of life. We can't sit back and waste anytime on second-guessing our decisions. As for the rule of law that has governed our nation for the past 200 years, lets get real here, we've done what we've needed to do to spread out way of life from coast to coast and around the globe. We'd be having a similar debate over Indian land if this were 130 years ago. So lets not kid us as to what we are doing and have done in the name of the American way of life.

[T-Bird76]

I think in this country you are innocent until proven guilty.

Suspected enemies of the state are guilty until proven innocent. These guys weren't even American nor were they taken into custody in the U.S, so those laws do not apply.

[USAF Pilot 07]

The ACLU is very good in theory, they just go too far in certain instances, such as this one, which ultimately destroys a lot of their credibility among a majority of Americans.

The ACLU helps Americans everyday in all types of situations with generally positive and just outcomes. It's just these extreme cases that gives them a very bad name.

We had the president of the ACLU come speak to us at the Academy a few years back. She was a well-spoken, nice seeming lady, but left many of us (granted a primarily conservative audience) with the feeling that while an organization that will step in and protect individuals' rights is necessary, some of the cases they took seemed to lack just a little of that whole "common sense" aspect.

[tipek]

I think in this country you are innocent until proven guilty.

Suspected enemies of the state are guilty until proven innocent. These guys weren't even American nor were they taken into custody in the U.S, so those laws do not apply.

But Geneva Convention rules apply. In this case I agree with John but I think that ACLU is pure crap.

Tommy, I think that we would be much safer in America if 300 000 US soldiers protected us here and not invading Iraq.

And here is my shot taken month ago of soldiers killed by Bush family.
http://home.comcast.net/~tipek/cmentarz.jpg

Rafal

[T-Bird76]

So Rafal you want the war to be on our soil? That doesn't sound like a very good plan to me. Also why would you say Bush's family killed those soldiers? I'm sorry but that is just wrong and disgusting, you're implying his wife and girls killed them. If you going to make the statement correctly its the Polices of our govt in their belief that our involvement in Iraq caused their death. The last I checked the Dems voted for the Iraq funding bill. Btw the war on terror isn't centered in just Iraq.

[PhilDernerJr]

Misplaced blame.

Why do people not understand that whether we were in Iraq or not, that Muslim extremists would still be out to kill us WHEREVER we are?!

Your positng of that photo and your Bush reference is extremely insulting to all those who proudly give their lives for the freedom of hte Iraqi people and the protection of Americans from terror.

If I was among those in that cemetary, I'd do backflips in my grave after reading that post.

[tipek]

I'm not saying that its better to have war on US soil. I am against the war in general.
Ok, I should be more specific saying about Bush family. Papa Bush and Bush Jr are the people that I'm talking about.
I know that war on terror isn't going only in Iraq. But which country will be invaded by US next? Iran?
You are absolutely right saying that policies of our government have been part of death cause.
But you know what, we've lost more soldiers under both Bushes presidency than under any other president (of course excluding WWII and Vietnam fiasco). This war is more personal than fighting terror.

Phil,

Thats my point. No matter if they fight in Iraq, Afganistan or elsewhere, there always will be some extrimist fighting for his cause. Then why they don't focus on protecting Americans on American soil?


US soldiers that died in Iraq didn't give their lives for freedom of Iraqi people. In my opinion your line is very insulting to American soldiers that were burried in Arlington. I thought that Bush Jr sent US soldiers to Iraq to protect American people from weapon of mass destruction. Oh, wait a minute. They didn't find anything so it would look very stupid so Bush have changed his slogan from protecting US people from Iraqi nukes, to fighting for Iraqi freedom. And you can't deny it. There is video on youtube from March 23rd 2002 where Bush Jr gave speach that he will invade Iraq to destroy weapon of mass destruction. Then halfway of the clip you will see his second speach (forgot from what date) that US soldiers will fight for democracy in Iraq. WTF.

There is many more things that US gov should consider priority.
- Is it nice that US heros sleep in military hospitals with rats?
- Captured Afgani POW's have better conditions in Guantanamo Bay
- Tsunami that hit Asia few years back. US did a lot to help those people. I aplaud to them for being so kind and generous to the survivors. By now you probably know when I'm going with this.
- Yes, Katrina. Where did that happened? Half way across the world? Not really, it was right here.

You would look different on this war if you saw 4 funerals each hour, 10 hours a day, 7 days a week. Right now, average waiting time for funeral at Arlington is 6 weeks. Doesn't this send any message to people?

BTW - When I took this picture I was paying a visit to a family member :(

Rafal

[nwafan20]

US soldiers that died in Iraq didn't give their lives for freedom of Iraqi people.

That's a bunch of crap.

You know what, I have several family members over there right now. They are fighting for the freedom of all Iraqis. You know what? The Iraqis are grateful for all we have done.

You go live in a country ruled by a dictator that would feed you into wood chippers feet first as your whole family is forced to watch, Or getting your tongue cut off for speaking out against the government and tell me that you wouldn't be grateful for a country to liberate you from that sort of evil. My cousin IS fighting for the freedom of Iraqis. So don't disrespect him, or anyone else by saying that.

My cousin watched as his best friend was BLOWN INTO PIECES by a IED. Do you know what my cousin did after that? He signed up for a second term in Iraq because he saw the good we were doing over there. Every day he his putting his life on the line (he is on a bomb defusing squad) so you can make these sort of comments. Be glad you live in America and you can enjoy the freedom to say remarks like that.

[T-Bird76]

Rafal...you're forgetting a number of wars where we lost a lot of men, Korean War, War of 1812, oh and one that we lost a ton of our own. The Civil War. I don't disagree with you that the given reasons for invading Iraq are somewhat questionable. I do believe there was and still is a real strategic reason for invading Iraq for our greater security.

If you look at the geographic location of Iraq its dead center in the middle of the two last holdouts of state supported terrorism, Syria and Iran. I think the gov't felt a democratic Iraq with U.S support would put huge pressure on Iran and Syria to give up its support of terror organizations. I don't think it’s worked as planned but I'm not giving up yet.

I think Iran may be starting to figure out it needs to change or its going to be wiped off the face of this earth and not by us but by Israel. The talks between the U.S and Iran are ground breaking even if they were simply early talks. I think our plan is working and with countries like Libya turning the corner towards peace and involvement in the community of nations we have a chance at winning.

Back to the main topic though I feel very strongly about the steps we need to take to ensure our safety here in the U.S and if that means using torture or even the threat of it to extract information from these pigs then so be it. These people aren't humans anyway. The ACLU is entirely un-American in its support for these people who aren't even U.S Citizens. Moose you know I have the utmost respect for you but I can't have any respect for this organization.

[tipek]

They are fighting for the freedom of all Iraqis. You know what? The Iraqis are grateful for all we have done.

You go live in a country ruled by a dictator

Thats my point. Bush didn't go to Iraq to fight for Iraqi freedom. He changed his slogan half way to save his face.

To your second point. I actually have lived in a country like that for 18 years.

If Bush didn't send them there, your cousins friend would have been alive now.

Iraqi people are very gratefull for bringing democracy to Iraq. And probably thats why everyday US is losing 10 troops...

I would love Bush to move to Iraq after his presidency expire. He would live in democratic country that he have created. Iraqi people love him so much that he would have better there than here...

[tipek]

I'm signing off from this topic. Everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion.

And that was my opinion. I don't want to argue pointlessly. We are not going with this anywhere anyway.

Rafal

[Tom_Turner]

<< BTW - When I took this picture I was paying a visit to a family member >>

I am sorry to hear that Rafal.

In regards to the ACLU, my feelings are the organization has a noble history, and to this day has taken up some very worthwhile causes.

While I gave up following what the New York Chapter (and some other elements of the organization) are up to, I came to the conclusion well over 10 years ago that our local chapter is essentially a Criminals Lobby and not much more.

The last example I can remember (of dozens and dozens) is them effectively helping to nail the school security officer in the Bronx who spotted a "bulge" in a students' jacket and pulled the kid over - and found a gun. The ACLU now works in the abstract and not in reality. They would prefer the guns enter the school and chips fall where they may - they have a principle to uphold and your kids might just have to be sacraficed to preserve their utopian vision. You have to smash a few eggs to make an omlet of course.

I don't either mind theoretically the ACLU's principled stand on the perceived "rights" of alleged Al Quida members, but does anyone honestly not think many in that organization would not relish an opportunity to acquit a manifestly guilty terrorist on a technicality? I am certain many in the organization would be happy to do that...

In the immediate aftermath of 911, and I mean immediate, the were a handful of persons, (probably hundreds really) some librarian in Florida comes to mind - and a couple of universities I believe - adamantly refusing to provide any requested documentation from the FBI on certain individuals. THis was at a time there was a fear Al Quida had smuggled a nuclear bomb into the US. didn't matter to these patriots..

And too, it is worth noting that the ACLU no longer appears as interested as they once were in across the board rights, so much as a politicized agenda - picking and choosing their civil liberties concerns in anything other than a disinterested passion for such.

I don't believe either that these (Al Quida) terrorists qualify under the Geneva Convention. It is a "made up" right. And, apart from that, it is worth considering Al Queda is not beholden to the Geneva Convention anyway.

As for the war, it is worth noting in terms of deaths, a similar number of Americans have been killed by illegal aliens during that time period. Yet, it is not viewed with such urgency.

I am personally sorry this administration chose to go to Iraq. No govt seems able to tolerate or trust Al Quida within its borders, apart from the Taliban - not even our good friends the Saudi's. Even the repellent Sudan offered him up... Libya would not be able to tolerate them, and the Paki govt would eliminate them if they only could. Certainly Sadam would've dealt with them.

Of course NOW, with Iraq in a state of catastrophe, and foreign fighters entering the country every day, I suppose there could be an argument to stay and just kill as many as possible "over there" - but the political will does not appear to be there for that.

In a real war, one you intend to win, you need more troops - alot more. And you need to kill alot of more people. Falujah should've been obliderated from the map...but it wasn't. Game Over.

Is Putin having any more trouble with the Checkens?

TT

[G-BOAD]

getting a little political, are we?

The US liberated Iraq from Saddam, that's good, but now a lot of Iraqis are targeting us because they see us as invaders.

[nwafan20]

The US liberated Iraq from Saddam, that's good, but now a lot of Iraqis are targeting us because they see us as invaders.

Not true at all. The Iraqis still love us there. The only ones killing us are the extremists.

[G-BOAD]

then why do you think they are attacking us? through the war we destroyed half of Iraq and killed a lot of people.

[nwafan20]

then why do you think they are attacking us? through the war we destroyed half of Iraq and killed a lot of people.

Umm.... the citizens aren't attacking us. Its called terrorists who are fed in there through Iran or homegrown.

[RDU-JFK]

I think in this country you are innocent until proven guilty.

Suspected enemies of the state are guilty until proven innocent. These guys weren't even American nor were they taken into custody in the U.S, so those laws do not apply.

But Geneva Convention rules apply. In this case I agree with John but I think that ACLU is pure crap.

Tommy, I think that we would be much safer in America if 300 000 US soldiers protected us here and not invading Iraq.

And here is my shot taken month ago of soldiers killed by Bush family.
http://home.comcast.net/~tipek/cmentarz.jpg

Rafal

I had no idea Bush was responsible for WWII and Korea...

[Matt Molnar]

I had no idea Bush was responsible for WWII and Korea...
Bush is also responsible for:
• The Great Depression
• The Cubs' 99 year World Series drought
• The sinking of the Titanic
• The theft of Pam and Tommy's home video
• The untimely death of John Candy

[Bellucciman]

Oh yeah, don't forget that he turned Aniken Skywalker into Darth Vader too.

Why is it that we're the only ones that honor the Geneva Convention anyway? It seems to me that when our enemies take our soldiers and civilians captive they don't honor ****. But our lovely liberal politicians and celebrities couldn't care less about that. They just blame Bush. It's always easy to find a scapegoat.

[G-BOAD]

then why do you think they are attacking us? through the war we destroyed half of Iraq and killed a lot of people.

Umm.... the citizens aren't attacking us. Its called terrorists who are fed in there through Iran or homegrown.

lets see... if an army destroyed your home and killed your family, would you would:
A) pick up an AK-47 and try to fight them
B) wave their flag

tell me, how does the homegrown terrorism start?

PS. I'm NOT a terrorist who hates America, I'm just saying how the terrorism originates by our actions.

[nwafan20]

[quote="G-BOAD":66ceb]then why do you think they are attacking us? through the war we destroyed half of Iraq and killed a lot of people.

Umm.... the citizens aren't attacking us. Its called terrorists who are fed in there through Iran or homegrown.

lets see... if an army destroyed your home and killed your family, would you would:
A) pick up an AK-47 and try to fight them
B) wave their flag

tell me, how does the homegrown terrorism start?

PS. I'm NOT a terrorist who hates America, I'm just saying how the terrorism originates by our actions.[/quote:66ceb]

Stop drinking the kool aid! We are not blowing up random people's houses. That is total propaganda. Go over there and ask the citizens what they think of America, the majority love us and the majority have a lot of national pride.

[G-BOAD]

not saying the army intentionally targets innocent people, but during a time of war, lots of people die. bombs fall on innocent people's homes, solders mistake civilians for terrorist.

"About 100,000 Iraqi civilians - half of them women and children - have died in Iraq since the invasion, mostly as a result of airstrikes by coalition forces, according to the first reliable study of the death toll from Iraqi and US public health experts."
- http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0, ... 49,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1338749,00.html)


"Nearly 25,000 civilians have died violently in Iraq since the US-led invasion in March 2003, a report says.
The dossier, based on media reports, says US-led forces were responsible for more than a third of the deaths."
- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4692589.stm

and so on

I'M sure there are people who do like us.

but you must ask yourself why others don't.

[nwafan20]

Choose your source, one says 100,000, the other says 25,000. Sounds like discrepancy.

Any number of civilian casualties does not mean that Iraqi people are against us, again, the majority love us there.

[G-BOAD]

Any number you choose, still means Iraq civilians were killed by the army. I know some like us, but a lot of them hate us because the army destroyed their country and killed them. Some Iraqies see us as invaders who distoryed ther country and killed people. They dicide to fight back.

[USAF Pilot 07]

The Kurds love us! In fact they love that we went into Iraq so much that they created their own country to the North, where there is little violence, and a high pro-American sentiment....

[Tom_Turner]

The Kurds love us! In fact they love that we went into Iraq so much that they created their own country to the North, where there is little violence, and a high pro-American sentiment....

Yeah, and the occasional stoning to death of teenage girls....

The Kurds have been helpful to the US, but we'll see how Turkey and Iran feel a Greater Kurdistan in time....and what they'll do about it.

Tom

[Matt Molnar]

The Kurds have been helpful to the US, but we'll see how Turkey and Iran feel a Greater Kurdistan in time....and what they'll do about it.
With a thriving economy and a relatively stable government, the Kurds are indeed the one bright spot in Iraq these days...

...except for the fact that their ultimate goal is to claim about HALF of what is now Turkey, as well as large swaths of Iran and Syria, as "Greater Kurdistan." The Kurdish government tolerates (if not enables) the PKK, a terrorist group which has been staging small but deadly attacks within Turkey for many years. Turkey has had enough, and over the past couple of weeks they've moved 50,000 troops to their border with Iraq, and are considering a cross-border offensive to remove the PKK militants from Kurdish territory. Our defense secretary Robert Gates has pleaded with Turkey not to launch any military action, but I'm not sure we have much control over the situation.