Low Low Approaches on Localizer 31

[PhilDernerJr]

So last night when arriving at my lady's house on the eastern edge of Queens, we saw aircraft making the right turn onto base for LGA's Localizer 31 approach.

I was shocked at how low the planes were that far out. These planes were certainly under a 1,000 feet it seemed here, several miles out from the airport.

I'll have to check passur when I get home tonight to find the actual altitudes, but what's up with that? I know the Localizer doesn't offer pilots the knowledge of whether or not they are at the right hieght on approach, but being at 1,000 feet when you're 6 miles out is a little strange to me.

I saw an AA 738 doing this at about 10:55pm Sunday night.

[T-Bird76]

Its funny you say this Phil when I was driving home from your place yesterday on the LIE I was amazed how low both LGA and JFK arrivals were. Even all the way out by me the JFK traffic was very low, I also checked Passur on a BA 747 that passed over my house, she was only 3000 feet!

[Matt Molnar]

They are pretty low over Bayside. The published altitude at the beginning of the approach over southern Nassau County is 1,600. They fly straight northwest over my house, and begin descending just southeast of where Francis Lewis Blvd meets the Grand Central Pkwy.

Approach Chart (PDF):
http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204 (http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0602/00289L31.PDF) ... 289L31.PDF

Map of intersection FABRY:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q ... .76+(FABRY (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=40%C2%B0+43%27+31.60%22,+-73%C2%B0+45%27+53.76+(FABRY))&ll=40.725437,-73.764954&spn=0.015936,0.042915

[PhilDernerJr]

Or you can view that Approach Chart on the LGA Data page.

LGA Data:

http://www.nycaviation.com/lgadata

Localizer 31 PDF:

http://www.nycaviation.com/pdf/lga/LOCRWY31.pdf

[Matt Molnar]

Oooh, nice.

[USAF Pilot 07]

I flew in on the LOC31 approach last week on a UAL plane, and we were at 1,200 feet 3 miles out...

[N790SW]

Its funny you say this Phil when I was driving home from your place yesterday on the LIE I was amazed how low both LGA and JFK arrivals were. Even all the way out by me the JFK traffic was very low, I also checked Passur on a BA 747 that passed over my house, she was only 3000 feet! where on LI do u live tommy ?? cuz thts cool seein a 744 tht low

[SengaB]

The Expressway Visual has a Manditory crossing altitude over the "DIALS" NDB at or above 2500ft. After passing over the DIALS NDB aircraft decend to where they need to be to land. So what you are probably seeing are some planes getting down VERY fast right after they pass over the NDB instead of a gradual decent.
The DIALS intersection/PETHS NDB is 4.9 S miles SW (225) degrees from LGA.
Heres what the approach plate looks like from my Jeppesen Plates.
http://www.nycaviation.com/hosting/ewv.jpg

Senga

[N790SW]

hey i always wanted to know how to read jepesen charts- could one of u guys explain this to me plz

[SengaB]

Sure I'll do it.

This is a visual approach

The black dotted arrows are the visual path the a/c takes to runway 31 into LGA

The solid thin lines are the VOR radials that make up the fix/intersection. that has been labeled (DIALS) Dials is made up of JFK VOR's 317 degree radial and LGA VOR 225 degree radial. Where the 2 intersect is where a/c shall begin their final decent into LGA.
I might add:
On this particular approach:
If the LGA VOR is out for service then the 225 degree radial will not be available for navigation. If this is the case then a/c can use the ILS (Localizer course) 044 degrees to runway 4 to track to the DAILS intersection.


The boxes with numbers in them give a course to track and the frequency, morris code and approach code
example"
ILS for runway 4 is
044 degrees is the course to be tracked
frequency of 110.50
Approach code is ILGA

The little "fan" shaped thing below the word "DIALS is the NDB called (PETHS) PETHS also forms an additional decent point for a/c arriving to runway 31.

The visual landmarks you see there are used by a/c to see where they are on the path and also provide turning points.

Weather minimims that must be met to fly approach:
Cloud bases are 3000ft or above
Visibility is 5 miles or greater.

Senga

[Matt Molnar]

Why do the Greenpoint gas tanks still appear on the charts when they've been gone for 5 years?

[N790SW]

thanks senga i get it now =)

[N790SW]

do you have any charts for ISP?

[PhilDernerJr]

You can see them here, listed towards the bottom of the page:

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KISP

[SengaB]

N790SW
Yes I have ISP charts witch ones do you want to see?
Are those NOS one (Link) phil posted ok?

Phil,
I HATE those NOS charts especialy when flying! The only redeeming quality is that they are cheaper! :)

Gothamspotter,
I am not familiar with those tanks or if they wer taken away. I did just not check out a satellite image and there appears to be 2 tanks still standing and 2 demo "HOLES" where 2 tanks had been. I don't know when the image was taken but maybe there are till there. If not...It always takes a while to get these things out of the database. I guess someone has to call it in. The less significant something is the longer it takes to get it taken out. AT the bottom of the chart it states"twin tanks added" so may there are 2 others.

[N790SW]

well senga any one is fine for me - prefitably 24 L i belive thts the right runway

[Matt Molnar]

Gothamspotter,
I am not familiar with those tanks or if they wer taken away. I did just not check out a satellite image and there appears to be 2 tanks still standing and 2 demo "HOLES" where 2 tanks had been. I don't know when the image was taken but maybe there are till there. If not...It always takes a while to get these things out of the database. I guess someone has to call it in. The less significant something is the longer it takes to get it taken out. AT the bottom of the chart it states"twin tanks added" so may there are 2 others.

Ahh yes, I see them. I always assumed they referred to the original Greenpoint tanks which were the largest natural gas tanks in the world. I attended their implosion in 2001. I've never seen the new tanks and from the satellite image they look relatively to be used as a navaid but what do I know. :)

[SengaB]

N790SW heres ISp ILS 24 approach plate. ISP also has an NDB and ILS for runway 6.
http://www.nycaviation.com/hosting/isp24.jpg

Senga

[SengaB]

WOW must have been amazing to see those tanks go down. It wouold make for some nice photography as well!

Senga

[mirrodie]

would this make sense? last weds, I was driving north on pinelawn and looked west toward FRG, noticed a twin, possible a 757 or airbus, turning over he westbury area. And it looked at about 5000 feet. chekcing passur later, it was at 3700 over westbury, real low over the island too.

[SengaB]

Mario,
I am not too familiar with the LI area so I can't really help you with that. Maybe someone else who knows the ara can assist here.

I will say though that the MSA (Minimum Saft Altitude) on the chart in 10 mile radius around ISP is 2100 feet West, Southwest and South. Northeast its 1700 feet.

Senga

[Matt Molnar]

WOW must have been amazing to see those tanks go down. It wouold make for some nice photography as well!

Senga

It was less amazing than I had hoped. They went down really fast compared to a building, I guess since they were just hollow metal cans. My film decided to jam on me just as they were popping, so I didn't get any photos. :(

[N790SW]

hey senga- where is bald hill on this map- i belive thats where the ILS is

[moose135]

where is bald hill on this map- i belive thats where the ILS is

I assume you mean where the Vietnam Memorial is located, right? From what I can tell, it looks to be the 822' obstruction near the "CORAM" intersection.

[N790SW]

hey senga on the ISP maps wouldnt bald hill be on there

[N790SW]

hey senga wouldnt Bald Hill be on there for an ILS approach

[SengaB]

Bobby,
I did a search on that chart for that place you spoke of.
I think its the 647 foot "obstruction" that is just above the words "RIZER"

Sicenits a ILS plat you dont have to have it labled visually. All you need is the hight there.
I hope this helps
Senga

[mirrodie]

speaking of Bald Hill, in Coram, well, what is higher? Jane's Peak or Bald Hill?

[SengaB]

Mario, I have no idea im a Westchestah Co. boy! LOL! I can't find anything on it on the net.
Where is Janes Peak located? Maybe I can find it ont he chart here.

Senga

[N790SW]

where is bald hill on this map- i belive thats where the ILS is

I assume you mean where the Vietnam Memorial is located, right? From what I can tell, it looks to be the 822' obstruction near the "CORAM" intersection.

yeaa i belive soo although farmingville is closer to coram soo i would belive soo- and i am sorry for posting the bald hill ? like 5 times if any can edit it so it can be only once that would be awsome

[mirrodie]

Jaynes HJill or Jaynes Peak is in Melville or Huntington , Long Island.
Was just wondering.

[cancidas]

senga, dude.... do you really shell out the big bucks for jepp plates? go electronic man!! http://www.jeppesen.com/wlcs/index.jsp?section=about&content=product_efb.jsp#advanced

[SengaB]

Bobby,
I assumed it was the one next to RIZER because its clsoest to the interstate like Bald Hill seems to be. CORAM seems to eb a little farther north there. And the map I looked at showed RIZER pretty close to the highway.. I could be wrog though
Its one of those 2 places.

Senga

[SengaB]

Mario I found Janes Peak to be bwteen 380 and 400 feet.
So I gues Bald Hill is Taller

+++++++++++++=


Matt, About the charts. I think the digital chart system are more than what i need right now. Maybe when if, when I get to the airlines? But then they already have movig maps for you :)
Senga

[K9DEP]

Localizer

THe localizer is lateral navigation left right etc. The glideslope is vertical navigation :D

[PhilDernerJr]

I know, I said that in my first post.

[Mellyrose]

Back to the original topic....as I was walking to my car this morning, I saw several VERY low planes flying overhead - seemed to be even lower than the night Phil was referring to. Pretty cool, as I am not nearly as close to the airport and I don't expect to see planes that close from my neck of the woods. :)

[Matt Molnar]

Yep, they were using this approach this morning. Made my wait for the bus a little less boring. :)

[Mellyrose]

Matt, I think we're neighbors...lol

[Matt Molnar]

We are almost! I see them probably 30 seconds before you do. They're probably lower when they get to your house.